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Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

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Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:26 am

There was a similar topic back on the old boards but im gonna make a new one without alot of the outdated or just plain wrong info.Ill skip the crap everyone should know[Use cancels, end combos before 3 bars regenerate etc]

Your friendly neighborhood guide to Rushdown

Rushdown is the ability to keep pressure on the opponent and get openings for combos so you can do damage.All Rushdown strats should be about getting a combo opening into a DM or to force the opponent to TC.Rushdown involves these 7 factors and all are ALWAYS relative to the opponent your facing.Your reach speed etc is only measured in relation in relation to the opponents options so while I talk about them in a general manner think about how the same factors relate to opponents character

Reach-This has always been pretty important.Long reach lets you hit from farther out essentially giving you a makeshift speed/priority advantage just based on reaching farther than they can.The effective area your character can control with his different starters is important with forward reach being the main factor but dont forget the ability to hit sidesteppers which is sometimes a forgotten art.Big ass limbs stretching ability and swords help alot here as they mean your attack hitboxes will be out farther than your bodies hit-taking hitboxes

Movement-This is related to reach but somewhat different.Movement represents how far your characters body moves when you attack and where your hit boxes end up after an attack.Dabura for example has fucktons of reach with his zoning but his movement forward is VERY incremental which helps him zone.Trunks meanwhile initially has good reach but cant zone since he steps forward off so many of those sword attacks.Movement on a chain can help you get into more favorable range.A great example being Pikkon matching up against Dabura better than Yamcha because he moves forward more with Px4 than yamcha thus letting him break daburas range advantage or maybe Goku using the elbow to get away form opponents or make them whiff attacks

Speed-This is the amount of time it takes your attack to generate a hitbox.Speed wil often be what determines who gets hit by simply having your hitbox from an attack out there while the opponents has yet to register.Speed is often the the most important factor for obvious reasons : you hit them and they dont hit you but theres more to consider.Obviously range has to be factored in when determining and a good example would be Gohans P being the same speed as Super Buus but after after trading hits 2 or 3 times times Super Buu wins on reach.You also have to considering how quickly you come out of block stun THEN attack which is another speed limiting issue.It should also go without saying that negation doesnt give a damn how fast your first hit is only how fast the second one is

Safety-Safety is paramount and really the cancels that brought it too us were the main reason the Budokais hit as competitive game.All the speed and reach in the world matter crap if if you lose to the block button.A vast majority of all attacks in the budokai games have always needed a cancel at the end of a chain to keep it safe on block and avoid punishment.While cancels tend to handle blocked attacks well dodges spend a little ki to recover near instantly and get around some of the frame advantage the opponent gets on block[Which i admit im too lazy to get the numbers on].Dodges however have to be started before your actually blocking so [usually] you cant dodge mid-chain making dodge less reliable on wake-up.Since ki cost is deducted every hit multi-hitting chains can drain a large amount of your Ki on dodge.Aura guard is the last "blocking" factor you spend a pretty consistent amount of for invulnerability to everything but throws and fairly instant recovery.A good example to think about would be the generic E blast which ignores negation pops-up on Counter-hits is safe from across screen on block/AG and cant be dodged but has safety issues with energy attacks plowing through them attack hitboxes deflecting them and the "replacement" for dodging reflecting them turning it into "THEIR" ki blast

Negation-Priority in the Budokais tends to be more closely to a combination of the above factors but negation [or autoblock auto-guard hyper armor etc] is the thing that we think of when we imagine an attack plowing through another one.Many attacks just HAVE negation on some points and let you ignore hit stun for a single shot.What it tends to mean is that the attack with negation doesnt care how good your first attack is but how good the attacks that follow are.A good example would be the Pikkon vs Yamcha match where both guys have great negating Neutral P'es that have moderate speed and reach but win the majority of exchanges because that "moderate" nature gets augmented by the negation on the chain.Both characters simply ignore a hit when they P but everyone can do that with a P+K.What makes them so good is the next hit having negation.Basically each time negation pops-up for both of them its all about whatever the next hit does that decides the match-up and eventually Pikkons "Next hit" just doesnt match-up to Yamchas.Most characters dont have Yamcha/Pikkon multinegation chains.Most have negating P+K that you can use to plow through an attack[but only a few can be comboed after] while some characters like Goten or Kid Buu have negation on some regular chains that should be accounted for

Ki generation-Attacks that hit generate alot of ki for the attacker while blocked attacks generate a few ticks of ki for both players.Some chains simply have alot of hits and generate way more Ki than others.Since meter has so many uses in this game it places the advantage firmly on the attacking players side.Ki generation could be very important for somebody like Videl that would need her great Px5 to keep preassure on the opponent and make up for her low baseline.We could also look at kid Buu where his twirly arm attacks generater a LOT of ki for the opponent that he might not really need with his huge baseline but the threat of charging them and guard breaking forces the opponent to react and possibly spend Ki to avoid them.

Folow-up options-Once the attack is done what can you do next after it?Sounds simple enough but it requires alot of thought about every one of the above factors.First theres the question of whether you hit the opponent or not and what combo options you have on that hit.Can you hit a DM immediately or can you wait and combo more?What chains can you hit from this position and how many before they can TC out?Speed also combines with this by forcing you to think about how quickly you can end a combo before they get to 3 bars.This is something that we often forget when getting SDF infinites with KK Goku that have done done 1200 damage when they have 3 bars.The other "follow-up" effect is what to do on block.Now again your goal is to end up landing a combo so on block you will immediately be going through all your attack options again based on what the opponent is doing coming out of block/dodge/aura guard.Will a constant stream of chains eventually hit them off an ill-advised counter-attack?Would a Ki blast juggle them even through negating attempts at countering?Can you throw charge an attack for guard break or stagger them in guard with a dash attack or transformation?Will backdashing/stepping make them step into your NEXT move instead?These mind-games are the X factor that really make the Budokais fun

The rushdown game is a chess match using all the above pieces to damage the enemy and win the match.When you stop and think about it even defensive play fits into this Budokai "Rushdown" defination its just focused on things like negation and safety rather than movement and speed
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by Soriphen on Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:19 pm

Holy shit this should be stickied.

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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by THTB on Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:32 pm

And sticky it shall be.

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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:16 am

Handle dandy guide to comboing

Once your rushdown has enabled
you to land that first hit you need to take the options section and
figure out what to do next.The Budokais have fairly terrible hit for
hit damage compared to other fighting games so generally you need as
large a combo as possible if you want to win in any reasonable amount
of time.The system also is very combo friendly/orientated so its not as
much of an issue as it would be in a game like say Super Turbo.

Because
of teleport counters all combos essentially have a time limit.Because
of damage buffering ending a combo with a damaging unbuffered death
move tends to be more important than landing as many hits as
possible.Fatigue is the last factor to consider in combos that could
help certain ones and seriously hinder others.Understanding it better
will help you maximize damage.Lets look at these factors in a little
more detail

Ki bars regenerate at a rate tied to your baseline
ki level.Every level of baseline gives slightly faster Ki
regeneration.On average low baseline characters regenerate a bar every
6 seconds with max baseline character sgetting a bar back every 4.This
means that [barring fatigue juggles] your longest combos will be 12-18
seconds long.In reality only the AI extremly unlucky or bad players
will ever be at 0 ki letting you land the longest possible
combos.Usually combos will be at a 2 ki bar limit in the 8-10 second
range.Fatigued characters will also automatically regain 1 bar when
they come out of fatigue if they didnt have any left which is even more
reason to learn combos in that time range.

A common thing i keep
seeing in match vids online is inefficient use of time you have to land
a combo.Sure Gogetas vids look pretty good but its often not efficient
to combo into DF and cancel without hitting or to try and land every
chain a character is capable of.Several characters have comboable
chains that honestly shouldnt even bothered with for reasons ranging
from the overly long time it takes to low damage compared to other
chains to overly tight timing that may screw the whole combno up.An
example would be Friezas or Pikkons
cancels to follow-up its one hit for fairly average damage you can only
connect it off certain chains because of its start-up time and the time
it takes to transition from stunning to landing another hit is rather
long.When you look at these factors there really isnt a reason to ever
use these stuns for these characters especially when they have several
other options.You mi8ght say "Now wait what about while they are
fatigue?You could avoid half those problems by starting a combo from
behind on a fatigued opponent".I would concede that you COULD and that
would mitigate the negative side effects.I would also then point out
that 99.9% of the time you land a full charged heavy slam form behind
for damage on par with level 1 death moves as a single hit to start a
combo that does alot of laughing at damage buffering

Now we can
cover damage buffering.Sori did a pretty good chart on the effects of
damage buffering in this series and while I havent tested im fairly
certain its the same or roughly so.We should all know the details by
now the more hits the less damage.A good rule fo thumb is to know what
chains do the most damage in the least amoutn of time and use them
first to limit the damage lost through buffering.Damage buffering is
ignored by death moves so thats generally how you would want to end
combos.Since hit count tends to be largly irrelavent its usually better
to end a combo early with a DM than to extend a combo once damage
buffering renders them to single digit damage.Contrary to popular
belief ultimates are not subject to damage buffering.Some ignore it
completely but the majority of them are damage buffered ONLY when
connected in certain ways.Anytime you connect an ultimate the "easy"
way they get damage buffered.This seems to be off things that create
tons of stagger like heavy slams transformation stun or a fully
fatigued opponent.If you connect then off a regular cancel the hit
counter will usually reset in the middle of the animation of the
cut-scene and give you full damage.In the air full fatgiue also
instantly resets the hit counter which is helpful in general btu a
godsend for characters with good cut-scene ultimates like Pikkon or
Mystic Gohan.

Fatigue is the last factor we can cover in this
post.Fatigue basically shuts off teleport counters from the time your
meter fills up until the head shake.When fatigued on the ground the
opponent enters a "falling: sort of stagger similar to some of the stun
animations from SB.During that they can still be hit on the way down
but the way they fall changes and they usually go into a low juggle at
best.When the victims body is considered "Downed" they become
invulnerable for a second until they stand up in the fatigued
state.Once struck the fatigued state is considered removed.You stay
fatgied for a rather long time and that time is wide open for
abuse.There are several things you can do including

1] Charging
to level off any advantage they have.Dont charge to full as the roar a
character does takes too long and costs you a precious half-second
2] Throw a death move taking advantage of that free single hit for unbuffered damage.
3]
Taunt.Maybe even more than once if your character has a fast taunt like
Super Buu and can still combo when they are down 1 or two meter
4]
Fully charge a heavy slam from behind.This does damage on par with lv1
DMs for no ki costs and a single hit is barely a blip on the damage
buffering scale
5] Use an ultimate.Their fatigue will be at 0 and
its subject to damage buffering but if the hits count is low if you can
connect it off a cancel if you have a no struggle ultimate or or are in
the air where it resets this may be an option

When being juggled
and fatigued the opponent is basically at your mercy.They cant TC and
you could theoretically infinite them to death in this situation.In
reality they fall much faster than normal which tends to foul that up
eventually and damage buffering usually means only the DM chainers can
do anything significant with it,Even DM chainers have watch their ki
cost [With the 2 bar costs and all] and change-ups are usually where a
DM infinite falls apart.To be honest only Bardok has an easy time with
DM infinites and easy change-ups and all the other stake JUST enough
work to have a noticeable margin for error.They could still win a match
but you really arent going to see 100% combos very often.The toughest
part of fatigue juggles is making sure they actually get juggled in the
first plaace since the ground "Slump" animation makes juggling them
hard and damage buffering can make scoring that last couple hundred
damage hard.Most characters should be contect with using an infie to
get 7 bars then finish with a DM

What is really dangerous is
chain fatiguing,DM infinites are one thing but several characters can
fatigue with 2 bar combos taunt while they are fatigued and do it
again.Super Buu with a good absorption has been my favorite example
since he can taunt twice and Heavy slam before the opponent recovers
then easily cause 2K damage with a short combo and do it all over
again.Some other good character examples would be Goten Omega Shenron
Mystic Gohan [Who can also DM infinite] and a few others I tend to
prefer chain fatiguing to DM infinites since more characters can pull
it off but its also got less margin for error than the change-up
portions of DM infinites.Most DM chainers can do both but some still do
it better than others [DF takes too long to juggle compared to say SDS].
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by THTB on Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:12 pm

Good shit, Cap.

Yeah, doing the stylish infinites are groovy and all...but meh I'd rather take the damage over the style.

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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by Thalès76 on Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:22 am

Good shit indeed, yeah I noticed most of the people who upload vids on youtube they rather play for combo exhibition and not for playing to win, except for the Gogeta vs Vic vids maybe.

But about doing an ultimate while they are fatigued, after you do that you basically have no ki, unless you charge up but the opponent will come at you before you have to time, so you will be at a Ki disadvantage.
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:19 am

Thalès76 wrote:Good shit indeed, yeah I noticed most of the people who upload vids on youtube they rather play for combo exhibition and not for playing to win, except for the Gogeta vs Vic vids maybe.

But about doing an ultimate while they are fatigued, after you do that you basically have no ki, unless you charge up but the opponent will come at you before you have to time, so you will be at a Ki disadvantage.

Theres another factor that is hard to account for as well.After hitting an ultimate the opponent is usually stuck in the knocked down position for a few seconds while your up in the air.Usually this allows you to charge 3 bars by the time they get up.Characters over their baseline will lose Ki during that time which adds a nice little bonus.Ive seen a few exceptions like Kid Buu leaves the opponent down for a little less time Dabura cant move for a split second and starts on the ground or on a loss the opponent can actually move BEFORE the screen flash is finished after Fat Buus ultimate.This is of course pretty character specific but knowing the recovery time and recovery position after your ultimate should be important to know as well

Makes me think I should do the starter thread again too.Although thats Anelias
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Wed May 05, 2010 10:04 pm

Its about time I add a little note on the inner works of damage

There are two concepts I want to explore right now the ideas of Practical damage and Potential damage

Practical damage would be the ability cause good damage on a consistent basis.An example of things that could count as practical damage would be simple combos that are virtually impossible to ever mess up Un-TCable DMs or No struggle Ultimates.Consistency is what matters here and how much you can apply the sdamage you have at any rtime in any given match.Things that would cut into consistancy would be low baseline overly tight timing on combos or juggles or DMs that take a long time to score their damage

Potential damage would be the ability to cause huge damage in ridiculous amounts.Damage potential is easy to rate its just the raw damage output a charater can manage without the opponent TCing out.Obviously the poster children for this factor would be Bardok and Teen Gohan who can score multiple lifebars in a few seconds but practicality has a sort of passive effect on it.An example would be Raditz having big damage with uis 4 bar RTU but combined with his bad Rushdown lower baseline and the move being TCable his actually potential is rarely applied or 18 who has a chainable DM but it doesnt cause cause and cant really be comboed into anything but itself.For potential to be rated high for real it has to actually happen in a match basically

Every character has varying levels of these two factors that im thinking about rating on a 1-5 basis.A few examples im thinking of are

High practicality low potential-Janemba-He has pretty good starters fast DMs a no struggle ultimate and high baseline but his damage doesnt really top 1500

Low practicality high potential-Cooler.Pretty high damage with his RTU an infinite and a good LV2 DM as well but with only one usable starters very little mix-up and his ultimate is TCable while his size keeps the opponent from being hit with the backblast of the Ki blast ultimate Like Goten or Trunks can

Even the top tiers arent perfect.Yamcha for instance has the ultimate starters but technically his dmaage is bad and his infinite with WFF not only is difficult but cant cause full fatigue all by itself before any opponent gets 3 bars.
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by Overlordtico on Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:33 pm

Lol, only IW Goku is a perfect character. There is no area where that character lacks. Granted that Pikkon, Dabura and GT Goku follow him very closely, i'd say say Yamcha is 5th top in my list simply cause his baseline ki is 3 and damage is low.
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by Brohan on Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:30 pm

I agree, Goku dominates the cast as a whole.
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by Overlordtico on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:47 pm

To me GT Vegeta > Yamcha when he transforms to SSJ4
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by Brohan on Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:04 pm

Yeah, and GT Vegeta and Goku are equal more or less, it's just GT Vegeta is slightly harder to use.[His and Trunks cancels were never hard for me, I was shocked when everyone said they were hard lol]
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by AquaTeamV3 on Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:15 pm

GT. Vegeta doesn't seem that hard IMO; the main thing you need to get down pat is his ability to chain off of his P+K. If you can do that along with getting into SSJ4 ASAP and landing Final Shines, you can pretty much be a monster with him. I really feel as if he's the one character that can keep Goku in check.

As for Trunks, his main PPPP- cancel is fast, but handy. I honestly feel that he'd be a better character if he could chain off of his P+K from the front. That thing has so much priority it's not even funny, including certain frames where he puts the sword away or pulls it out. He's still pretty good as is, although his playstyle is very different than the others.
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by Overlordtico on Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:53 pm

His single cancels are not hard, chaining them all together that's where people have trouble. Like using p+K or fp+k etc and kkkk is very easy even for a beginner. But using all his fast cancels and ground resets in a row is harder for some cause he has no real slow connections. In terms of learning curve he is one of the hardest to learn because of this, granted that if you only use the simple good obvious stuff like his p+k priority you can win a fight. But all fights should be won with some style, showing characters to the full extent of their fighting abilities n.n
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by AquaTeamV3 on Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:35 pm

Depends on the situation, really. There's some stuff that's so out there that it's really impractical to use in a fight. For instance, Super Buu has other cancel-able chains outside of PPK-, but due to the speed and damage given by that sole chain there really isn't much else you'd need to do, although you can get flashy during a stun combo if you really want to.

On the other hand, stuff like that Cell reset you mentioned to me on IM would be worth going out of your way to learn, as it's both flashy and match-practical at the same time.
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by Brohan on Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:48 pm

Here's My Top Tier for IW

1:Goku/GT Vegeta
2:Pikkon
3:Dabura
4:Yamcha
5:Syn Shenron
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by Overlordtico on Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:42 pm

That's pretty accurate, but idk of Shenon, his damage is mediocre until he transforms and he has no death move finishers until that point. And what's worse is he loses the transform when fatigued.
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by Brohan on Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:41 pm

He starts at a 6 base line, and he has the starters to build one ki bar lol
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by Overlordtico on Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:52 pm

Lol true, but is a lil hard to do sometimes to get that 1 ki bar up if fighting another top character. He doesn't have any zoning and he lacks decent priority asides from his p+k. Goku would just elbow him at the start lol into fpkk- anti tc and there goes his ki advantage :p
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by Brohan on Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:39 pm

That's Goku, he has good matchups against everyone except GT Vegeta lol. But Shenron is better than the other high tiers by alot, so you gotta put him somewhere.
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Re: Things everyone should know while playing Infinite World

Post by Overlordtico on Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:14 pm

GTV is the win for defense lol
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