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Your ideas for a new Budokai

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Heromaster111 on Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:08 am

Nnamz that doesn't matter are you saying he should stop doing something that works just because you can't stop it? That's like being pissed at someone picking Sagat and them spamming Tiger Shots and getting pissed cause you couldn't work around it. Her <P is good but last I heard #18 wasn't Top tier.

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Nnamz on Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:43 am

Heromaster111 wrote:Nnamz that doesn't matter are you saying he should stop doing something that works just because you can't stop it? That's like being pissed at someone picking Sagat and them spamming Tiger Shots and getting pissed cause you couldn't work around it. Her <P is good but last I heard #18 wasn't Top tier.

..............Are you even reading what I said?

Of course he shouldn't stop doing it. He actually took a round against me, he should do whatever he can to win. Thats not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that it shouldn't BE in there in the first place.

And besides, he took A ROUND. One round. It's not like I never beat him ever before or after that >_>. It's just dumb that he can deal just as much damage as someone who has mastered the all of 18's chains by repeating <PP over and over again and ending it with a death move.

Infinites are boring and dumb and make the characters seem like they weigh nothing.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:00 pm

The problem there Nnamz is................so what?

See one of the things ive been complaining about lately in the community has been people pretending that style matters in combos.Now usually its about 1100 damage infinites with people falling out between hit 88 and 89 but another part of that has been people pretending difficult inputs make the game better.I still see people on Youtube claiming B3>IW just because it has more difficult mid-chain > or < inputs so they can claim they non-match combo dummy vids are great

Nobody should give two craps and a stroke how easy it is to perform or how it looks.Heck i think ground resets in IW look ridiculous but that doesnt make me wanna remove them from the game

It also wasent broke its vastly overrated because for a while only Gogeta was putting out vids and all of it was showing off infinites.This sort of dislike goes way back into the old days of fighters when "infinite" used to mean "The match ended off one hit".This does NOT happen anymore and even with DM infinites in IW it doesnt happen as much as some players that didnt do the research think it does

They are NOT that overlyeffective they are not that critical and they are not so pointless that removing them would make the game any better.In fact all the games without them have had critical downsides that arguably made the games worse
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Nnamz on Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:17 am

Your complaints about BL and SB have nothing to do with the physics.

And my "so what?" is that it's BORING boring to do and EASY to rack up near maximum damage with any character that has an infinite. As I said, with 1 minute of training the damage gap between a novice and an expert will be closed with infinite involved. (Just pointing out the obvious, NOT saying its a 50:50 here) And aside from the gameplay issues it just looks stupid. Bouncing a character around non stop like they are made of air looks dumb. They are oversights from the devs, and have no business in a polished game.

Nothing is wrong with the physics in SB and BL. They only infinites in those games are very accute oversights which can be corrected in the next game, they aren't riddled with oversights like in B3 and IW.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Soriphen on Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:23 am

THTB wrote:
Soriphen wrote:Lol, that's why you balance it just like in Blazblue and Guilty Gear. It goes like this...For every backdash or wtv, you get negative points and for everything involving moving forward and blocking an attack or attacking, you get positive points.

ANYWAY, I just realized it's pointless not because of the backdash, but, you could simply TC instead LOL.
That's...dumb...you get rewarded for a dash meant to promote aggressiveness by a subsystem...yet the same subsystem punishes you for performing dashes that could be used for spacing and forcing whiffs...am I the only one who finds that beyond retarded? This is why I don't generally like GG/BB...there's just subsystems that blatantly promote certain playstyles. I don't see how anyone likes the idea of that, but that's just me.

Anyway, yeah, if they fix the backdash issue, then yeah, it's all gravy.

Also, Nnamz, there's nothing wrong with that...that's just how the engine works. Be lucky it's not braindead and doesn't strip you of like 70-85% of your life lol. I've seen shit worse than even that...1 single button = GGPO LMAO.

Lol Tay, that's why it's balanced to perfection pretty much. They know what they're doing and it never went wrong. It actually works and doesn't penalize you in ways you think. You could be defensive if you want, but, there are so many minute things they put into consideration so it doesn't ruin the game.

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Heromaster111 on Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:03 pm

THTB wrote: This is why I don't generally like GG/BB

So have you made the conscious decision to not like good fighters(BB/GG) and adore bad ones(MK/BT)?

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Nnamz on Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:05 pm

oooooh snap!
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by lordantonius on Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:20 pm

IMO combos and infinite's don't mean shit without the dmg, besides most "hard connections" are useless in a real fight. I prefer dmg over cool looking chains. Infinite's are good for one thing to gather kai.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by THTB on Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:09 pm

Soriphen wrote:Lol Tay, that's why it's balanced to perfection pretty much. They know what they're doing and it never went wrong. It actually works and doesn't penalize you in ways you think. You could be defensive if you want, but, there are so many minute things they put into consideration so it doesn't ruin the game.
I'm mostly saying it's dumb because there's just shit tons of subsystems...sure they're balanced out well, but IMO overloading a game with subsystems just makes for a ridiculous game.

Heromaster111 wrote:So have you made the conscious decision to not like good fighters(BB/GG) and adore bad ones(MK/BT)?
Whoever said I liked BT? I don't even like the games that much...I just think BT2 is okay, and RB is okay as well. And UMK3 is pretty good (hell, it's been 15 years and the game is still hype...BB is already dying out, though that's heavily due to SFIV being unreasonably popular), MKDC was a step up from what Midway had been releasing, and MK9 is looking pretty promising. That's about it.

My issue with GG/BB is that it's a game filled with subsystems that are designed to forcibly make a certain playstyle more effective. It's not a bad game by any means...I just don't like the design of it.

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:40 pm

Nnamz wrote:Your complaints about BL and SB have nothing to do with the physics.

And my "so what?" is that it's BORING boring to do and EASY to rack up near maximum damage with any character that has an infinite. As I said, with 1 minute of training the damage gap between a novice and an expert will be closed with infinite involved. (Just pointing out the obvious, NOT saying its a 50:50 here) And aside from the gameplay issues it just looks stupid. Bouncing a character around non stop like they are made of air looks dumb. They are oversights from the devs, and have no business in a polished game.

Nothing is wrong with the physics in SB and BL. They only infinites in those games are very accute oversights which can be corrected in the next game, they aren't riddled with oversights like in B3 and IW.

Actually I can find plenty wrong with BL and a few things wrong with SB physics that matter a HELL of alot more than infinites which mathematically dont mean jack shit in a real match.Only DM infinites or ridiculously fast ones with several hits like Super Buu or Baby Vegetas have even a chance to score reasonable damage.Besides those infinites are something you tack a couple chains on at the end of a combo when you cant do anything else or you use for meter building on a fatigued opponent

I think Saiyajins tournament vids proved that knowing a few infinites doesnt mean you can play the games well.Saying mastering infinites levels the gap between n00b and pro is completely crap..Your still gonna lose to Px4E if you treat a match like a combo exhibition vid

It looking stupid is a matter of opinion.I think they look fine in Tekken Budokai MvsC2 etc especially if the hit counter and damage is going up
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Nnamz on Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:47 pm

"Actually I can find plenty wrong with BL and a few things wrong with SB physics that matter a HELL of alot more than infinites"

Okay, feel free to share.

"Only DM infinites or ridiculously fast ones with several hits like Super Buu or Baby Vegetas have even a chance to score reasonable damage"

Not true. 18's is average speed and she can score nearly as much damage with it than her ground combo. Same with Piccolo in the air with KK<K^ over and over into a death move.

18 seconds with an infinite over and over produces nearly as much damage as a long ground chain into a death move.

"I think Saiyajins tournament vids where proved that knowing a few infinites doesnt mean you can play the games well."

I never said that. I clearly said the opposite. It closes the DAMAGE gap, which is still stupid. A player who's practiced for a minute could deal almost as much damage as someone who has been at it for years and who has mastered the system. Yes there is more to the game than damage, I pointed that out before you did. But it doesn't change the fact that its messed up.

"It looking stupid is a matter of opinion.I think they look fine in Tekken Budokai MvsC2 etc especially if the hit counter and damage is going up"

Most people agree infinites in Budokai look stupid compared to stylish ground chains. Not to mention they are far easier, and most can be done with a minute of practice.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:15 pm

Nnamz wrote:"Actually I can find plenty wrong with BL and a few things wrong with SB physics that matter a HELL of alot more than infinites"

Okay, feel free to share.

"Only DM infinites or ridiculously fast ones with several hits like Super Buu or Baby Vegetas have even a chance to score reasonable damage"

Not true. 18's is average speed and she can score nearly as much damage with it than her ground combo. Same with Piccolo in the air with KK

18 seconds with an infinite over and over produces nearly as much damage as a long ground chain into a death move.

"I think Saiyajins tournament vids where proved that knowing a few infinites doesnt mean you can play the games well."

I never said that. I clearly said the opposite. It closes the DAMAGE gap, which is still stupid. A player who's practiced for a minute could deal almost as much damage as someone who has been at it for years and who has mastered the system. Yes there is more to the game than damage, I pointed that out before you did. But it doesn't change the fact that its messed up.

"It looking stupid is a matter of opinion.I think they look fine in Tekken Budokai MvsC2 etc especially if the hit counter and damage is going up"

Most people agree infinites in Budokai look stupid compared to stylish ground chains. Not to mention they are far easier, and most can be done with a minute of practice.

1] The entire BL system and the backdash problem in SB.Enough said.They fuck the gameplay up pretty badly and alot worse than largely damage buffered infinite chains

2] Ah you must still be talking B3.Which I dont play anymore.Either way comparable damage to ground chains isnt that particularly impressive for relatively average damage characters.Even then who cares how you score damage?I actually find all but a few juggles harder and that people fall out of them more from microsecond mistimings or screen scroll

3] Well meh.Very few characters have easy infinites in IW and with the damage reduction compared to B3 they are even less effective than before.They just arent a big deal.Even in B3 18s infinite has never shocked the metagame as much as anti-TC infinites and that idiotic Neutral p

4] I say most people agree that it matters dick how it looks and that its more important to have alot of options than to make people that dont like juggles happy.I dont mind a few Cut-scene ultimates characters rthat get their best damage around infinites or negating chains spread along the whole cast as long as no one thing is end all be all of thwe game
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by THTB on Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:21 am

Nnamz, who cares how easy it is to deal damage? That's not a real factor at all...and really hasn't been since the beginning of time.

Hell, UMK3 has BASIC BnBs that can do up to half your life...anyone can do them too. Tekken's combos in general 5 and later are very easy for the most part. It doesn't mean much how difficult it is to do combos.

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Thalès76 on Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:00 am

In SF4 with Zangief, jump Heavy Kick and Low Heavy Kick, two buttons for 270dmg lol. And Cap you're wrong at least 40% of the cast in IW have easy infinites, Super 17, Baby, IW Vegeta, Goten, Bardock, Cell, Teen Gohan and the list goes on.. Of course some of these characters have harder infinites but any noob can do BackPP with Bardock or PKP with Cell. And I don't even care how easy it is, i'm just saying IW is a lot more combo friendly.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:50 pm

Thalès76 wrote:In SF4 with Zangief, jump Heavy Kick and Low Heavy Kick, two buttons for 270dmg lol. And Cap you're wrong at least 40% of the cast in IW have easy infinites, Super 17, Baby, IW Vegeta, Goten, Bardock, Cell, Teen Gohan and the list goes on.. Of course some of these characters have harder infinites but any noob can do BackPP with Bardock or PKP with Cell. And I don't even care how easy it is, i'm just saying IW is a lot more combo friendly.

Well whewn I say "easy" i mean something you will NEVER mess up and people can do right off the bat picking up the game.That leaves very little like Bardok or Cells infinites and only Bardok has good damage.Anything with a cancel id consider intermediate especially factor in the occsional screen scroll
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by KingDiamond on Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:05 am

Just make it IW2 with better balance, more unique moves, ki canceling, and RT ultimates. And zero story. Why waste time and effort trying to re-tell the DBZ saga YET AGAIN.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by AquaTeamV3 on Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:18 am

If anything they should bring back the characters from the previous games that were dropped. This includes not only the characters from B3 and B1 (i.e. Supreme Kai, Zarbon, Kid Goku, etc), but also the fusions from B2. Gokule was an amazing character, and I'd think he'd be a great contender.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by KingDiamond on Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:44 am

No they should actually have less people so they can focus on giving them unique fighting styles and not just copy/paste another axe kick combo. Leave the clones to BT/RB since its not really a fighting game anyway.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Heromaster111 on Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:41 am

Less people means no Videl means game will blow which means fuck that shit,

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:19 pm

More people wouldnt hurt in moderation but we ACTUALLY need to make them interesting to play.Having fusion as regular characters would also be entertaining rather than a barely usable gimmick [which we were lucky was mostly usable in IW]

I dont want all RTUs though.The damage in the games with all RTUs tended to be off the scale as is and I think longer matches with more DM use is preferable.If anything we could use a few more of them spread out around the cast but mixed with the Cut-scene ultimates keeping damage at moderate levels
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by THTB on Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:46 am

RTU damage is simple to fix...just reduce them so it's not so overwhelming. BL actually did this right...plus when you add scaling, they won't be extremely damaging.

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Thalès76 on Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:42 am

As King said, most combos in Budokai are almost the same for each characters, they all have axe kicks, BL did it right though. Bring back what they did in BL, bring back Ki cancelling and let's have a good IW2.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:23 am

Thalès76 wrote:As King said, most combos in Budokai are almost the same for each characters, they all have axe kicks, BL did it right though. Bring back what they did in BL, bring back Ki cancelling and let's have a good IW2.

Exclusively using axe kicks hasent been done since Budokai 2
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Bond on Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:02 am

The first thing they need to do is make it on a current fuck gen platform.
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