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So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

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Re: So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

Post by Nnamz on Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:20 pm

"and yet ive had new players that got down basic stuns and cancels in a few days and still cant do Baby vegetas P,P,K,K- infintie an "easy" one without them falling out in two or three reps..Fact of the matter is infinites have a great chance of failing than basic ground combos even before you factor in juggle speed changing for fatigue"

Indeed. We've all seen it. The cancel, stun and juggle combo system takes a mere few days of practice to actually start pulling some basic ones off in an actual match.

It doesn't change the fact the finding a characters easiest infinite and repeating that chain over and over takes mere minutes of practice before said person is ready for most characters.

"No IW bombed because it was a last gen game released on the backend of a failure of the system by DIMPs called Burst Limit.The majority of players dont even know that the infinites eixst.Your just looking to bash the game now ebcause you dont like it"

Budokai 1, 2, 3, SB, SBAR and BL all put up decent numbers. I'm aware there are more reasons for it failing than it being unpolished. But even as a PS2 game it failed miserably compared to other PS2 games which were released near the tail end of the systems life. And I believe it's because the game failed at a package and polish level.

And I said it before, I like the game. I don't dislike it. I prefer it to B3, which was one of my favorite games of all time. I'm simply able to recognize that SBAR is the better game, and that both in terms of depth and polish, IW is a step back.

"Know what we got in IW?Several useful starters and tactics for the majority of the cast.Id say that stacks up to using R starters to counter charged S starters"

There is more to SB than simply using R starters to counter charged S's. I brought that forward to show you that R starters have their place.

"and it was your lose.Theres nothing wrong with IW but it being last gen"

It's much better than I gave it credit for. But the physics are just too dated and the game just too slow for me after years of the Shin Budokai series. They added so much in Shin Budokai Another Road for it to be just stripped away and dumbed down for Infinite World for NO reason. It could have been so much more.

"Thats your choice.You can think that if you want and I wont.Just dont insist its fact again"

Actually I'm the ONLY one here who didn't insist that my choice of game is fact. Read your first post, then read mine.
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Re: So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

Post by Nnamz on Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:29 pm

"On top of that your argument doesn't even make sense. Instead of talking about facts on the game mechanics like damage, priority, usefulness in battle etc you say it looks retarded and u prefer a more flashy SBAR ground combo"

We are talking about which GAME is the better game, not which battle system is better (of which I still feel SBAR has a much better battle system. Polish is part of the game. The way the combat looks is part of the game. In a game with complex cancel combos which were well thought out for each character, having a stupid oversight like infinite combo's in ANY fighting game is an oversight due to a lack of play testing and shows the game's lack of polish. This is the main thing that turned me off to the game, NOT the main reason I think SBAR is the better game (which among other things included the retarded fatigue system, the gimped aura burst, the slow pace of the combat, etc). Sori made an extensive topic talking about some of the viable options the SBAR engine gives you over IW and BL. If you want to get into that, go there.

As a game, SBAR is the better game, and I've yet to see a comprehensive arguement as to why it isn't. All I see are people sitting back and attempting to explain away IW's various VALID faults. If anything you should give CAP props for actually getting knowledge about things he felt in were problems in the gameplay of SBAR.
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Re: So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

Post by THTB on Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:58 pm

Who gives a flying fuck how the combos are lol? Does it really matter that much? No not really. At the end of the day, they're combos. That's about it. Alpha 3 was infinite city, where the shit was unescapable and took pretty much entire rounds to win with...didn't stop that game from being competitive, nor did it stop people from actually using them despite their length. Not to mention, the way infinites are used in IW is a great deal different from most games.

As far as mechanics go, I'll be honest. SBAR's mechanics definitely have a polish to them that IW's don't. For instance, dizzy in IW works very weird...in just about any other FG that has a dizzy, the dizzy meter usually gradually decreases over time. In IW, though, if you rack up dizzy meter, it's practically permanent and you're pretty much gonna always fatigue at the same amount of health somewhere in the round. It's just not fully fleshed out...IW gives off the feeling of being rushed in those regards. Don't get me wrong, it's good...just rushed.

Either way, both games are good. I just wish SBAR was available on console. I'm honestly convinced that it's possible SBAR is actually more balanced (both character and mechanics-wise) than we currently believe and that lack of competitive play is the reason why this is so.

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Re: So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

Post by Thalès76 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:44 am

I guess I should be getting SBAR now since I have a PSP and I haven't touched IW or BL in months. But it must not be simple to cancel on the PSP, is there any way to connect a PS2 or PS3 controller on it? Just wondering, I can't talk since i've never played SBAR, but IW is pretty damn good just wish I could play against someone other than the stupid AI, 1 bars against 7 bars doesn't change anything it's still the AI and you won't learn anything until you play another canceller.
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Re: So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

Post by autobzooty on Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:07 am

Thalès76 wrote:I guess I should be getting SBAR now since I have a PSP and I haven't touched IW or BL in months. But it must not be simple to cancel on the PSP, is there any way to connect a PS2 or PS3 controller on it? Just wondering, I can't talk since i've never played SBAR, but IW is pretty damn good just wish I could play against someone other than the stupid AI, 1 bars against 7 bars doesn't change anything it's still the AI and you won't learn anything until you play another canceller.

I mapped the block button to a shoulder button and the dash button to X instead when I played SBAR. Honestly it works fantastically, and I use the same thing now that I play IW.

SBAR is fun in that it's like BL only not stupid, but it's still inferior to IW, imo. Replacing the P/K combo system with the R/S combo system ruined it for me, but it's definitely worth a look if you know enough about DBZ fighting games to know how awesome they are.
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Re: So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

Post by Nnamz on Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:01 pm

"Who gives a flying fuck how the combos are lol?"

Combo's can make or break a game.

In Budokai 3, I can attain more damage with Anroid 18 by mashing <PP^ over and over again than I could by doing her most complex cancel combo. <P was also her best starter by far. This means someone who is familiar with canceling can pick her up for the first time and compete against someone who's been using a character for ages. It also means a novice who has no idea how to cancel has closed the damage gap between him and someone else.

Aside from that, it looks retarded and takes away from the finess of comboing and the polish of the overall package, in my opinion.

"Either way, both games are good. I just wish SBAR was available on console. I'm honestly convinced that it's possible SBAR is actually more balanced (both character and mechanics-wise) than we currently believe and that lack of competitive play is the reason why this is so.."

I agree completely. Playing with Gogeta has really opened my eyes to a lot of mechanics which I thought were useless. But even our play was limited to a few months.

Thats said, my Tier List has stood the test of time for the most part since people have been playing it more competitively and have made changes. Razz

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Re: So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

Post by autobzooty on Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:54 pm

People highly overestimate the usefulness of infinites.

Every single combo in budokai 3 or IW is on a time limit. once your opponent regenerates enough ki to afterimage behind you, your combo is over. so if you waste the limited amount of time you have by doing a move that causes massive damage scaling, you will be doing less damage in the long run for it.

even in the best of situations, Goku barely has time to do every combo in his arsenal and follow it up with a Dragon Fist. I wouldn't wanna take away any of that limited time to use an infinite. good knowledge of all that different combos you can do in one chain is gonna get you MUCH farther than knowing how to do one infinite will.

infinites aren't really the problem with the budokai games. the problem is that every single character has pretty much one combo that is their "best" combo. Goku does a couple cancels, a stun, a juggle starter, and then a deathmove. krillin does a couple cancels, a juggle starter, and a death move. pretty much all the characters follow this general pattern. infinites dont need to be removed because they're so worthless in the face of the cancel>stun>juggle>DM pattern that every character can follow.

just my two cents.
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Re: So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

Post by THTB on Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:19 pm

Thalès76 wrote:I guess I should be getting SBAR now since I have a PSP and I haven't touched IW or BL in months. But it must not be simple to cancel on the PSP, is there any way to connect a PS2 or PS3 controller on it? Just wondering, I can't talk since i've never played SBAR, but IW is pretty damn good just wish I could play against someone other than the stupid AI, 1 bars against 7 bars doesn't change anything it's still the AI and you won't learn anything until you play another canceller.
If you have a PSPGo, you can connect PS3 controllers to it.

@Nnamz: Yes, the beginner players get rewarded just as much as experienced players for damage...but have you taken into consideration exactly how brutal of a game IW exactly is on beginners? Doesn't really matter that a novice can get as much damage as you because most likely they aren't even gonna get the opportunity to touch you with the starter to do so if you're more familiar with the game.

But it matters not. Both games are good. If my brother's computer can handle PSP emulation, I'm gonna probably get back into SBAR.

EDIT: I take that back...PSP emulation is ass atm. It's been out around the same time as DS...but it can't even be properly emulated yet. FAIL! Razz

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Re: So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

Post by Nnamz on Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:25 am

"Every single combo in budokai 3 or IW is on a time limit. once your opponent regenerates enough ki to afterimage behind you, your combo is over. so if you waste the limited amount of time you have by doing a move that causes massive damage scaling, you will be doing less damage in the long run for it."

You're missing the point. 18 can <PP^ all day until right before her opponent is about to get enough bars to TC then fire a destructo disk for as much damage as she would do on the ground for the same amount of time, while building the same amount of ki and causing the same amount of fatigue (if not more) to her opponent while requiring virtually NO skill for finess to do.

"Yes, the beginner players get rewarded just as much as experienced players for damage...but have you taken into consideration exactly how brutal of a game IW exactly is on beginners? Doesn't really matter that a novice can get as much damage as you because most likely they aren't even gonna get the opportunity to touch you with the starter to do so if you're more familiar with the game."

No argument here.

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Re: So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

Post by autobzooty on Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:56 am

Nnamz wrote:You're missing the point. 18 can <PP^ all day until right before her opponent is about to get enough bars to TC then fire a destructo disk for as much damage as she would do on the ground for the same amount of time, while building the same amount of ki and causing the same amount of fatigue (if not more) to her opponent while requiring virtually NO skill for finess to do.

correct me if i'm wrong, but repeating a combo in a chain begins the scaling process, right? whereas if i mix up all my combos, i wont be scaled until i really start racking up the hits.

so you can do <PP^ all day long, but you'll start scaling on the third hit, and you're not gonna land hardly any blows in the long run because it's only a 2 hit combo. but if you instead used that limited amount of time to do combos that aren't only two hits, and dont start scaling on the third hit, you'll do WAYY more damage.

my point is, if i did a full and varied combo with goku ending in a death move, and you did his KKKK- infinite for the same amount of time ending in a death move, i reckon that i would be dealing MUCH more damage than you. sure, an infinite can get you a decent bit of mileage, but in the long run you're doing higher execution for less damage.
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Re: So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

Post by Nnamz on Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:24 am

"correct me if i'm wrong, but repeating a combo in a chain begins the scaling process, right? whereas if i mix up all my combos, i wont be scaled until i really start racking up the hits."

No. Scaling begins regardless of which chains you use. 18 can rack up as much damage in B3 by repearing <PP^ and ending in a death move as she can by doing her most complex cancel combo. Sometimes it's more.
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Re: So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

Post by autobzooty on Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:23 pm

B3 is outdated. IW is all that's played anymore. Do you know if it still works the same way in IW? Lots of small things like that were changed. I'm too lazy to test, and also I can't do infinites cos they're too hard lol.

Regardless, a two hit juggle is a slow ass combo, and even if each hit isn't scaled, you're better off doing a combo that will actually hit your opponent more times.

I'll agree that it's a shame that there isn't much variety to the combos in the Budokai games, but to say that infinites are the best choice for every character seems like an excuse to not learn the game, if you ask me. these games have a lot of problems, but infinites are not chief among them in my eyes.
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Re: So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:51 pm

autobzooty wrote:B3 is outdated. IW is all that's played anymore. Do you know if it still works the same way in IW? Lots of small things like that were changed. I'm too lazy to test, and also I can't do infinites cos they're too hard lol.

Regardless, a two hit juggle is a slow ass combo, and even if each hit isn't scaled, you're better off doing a combo that will actually hit your opponent more times.

There are a couple people that can do more damage with repeated infinite chains than with ground cancel combos.A small number but they do exist.It requires an extremely speedy chain that simply generates more hitsper second up until the point where damage buffering hits 1 damage in or they nearly recover 3 bars

HOWEVER generally speaking juggles are still harder to do than ground combos.You tend to fall out of juggles a LOT easier than you do cancel chains.There are friends of mine that still struggle to link together 2-3 reps of Baby Vegetas infinite but can link his ground chains pretty easily
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Re: So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

Post by Thalès76 on Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:31 am

I find infinites easier, Baby has a good amounts of ground chains unlike people think and they are harder than his infinites, Baby being favorite character right now since he's easy to combo with and i'm rusty as hell.
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Re: So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

Post by Goodgamersambo on Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:23 am

Baby Has got the easiest infinite in my opinion, his ppkk infinite only takes like 5 minutes to master.

For ground combo's i would use kid buu at the minute as he has a few easy to do ones.

But overall i think Cell is probably the best for chaining combo's together as he is a kind of pick up and play character that anyone can use, in my opinion.
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Re: So is this still considered the best Dimps DBZ fighter?

Post by Bond on Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:18 pm

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