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IW Upper Tier List

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IW Upper Tier List

Post by Brohan on Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:51 pm

S+:Goku[via infinite Ki Burn glitch]/Fusion Goku[Via Infinite Ki Burn Glitch]
S:Goku/GT Vegeta/GT Goku, Pikkon, Dabura, Yamcha, Syn Shenron
S-: Super Buutenks
A:Super Buuhan, Super Buuicolo, Super Buu, Adult Gohan, Fusion Vegeta, Teen Gohan
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Re: IW Upper Tier List

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:12 pm

1 Ki Burn glitch is retarded and requires actually being dumb enough to use Aura Burn on your controller.Its also a freaky glitch and pobably shouldnt be counted much like the B2 EF glitch

2 Syn Shenron has the damage to hang with upper tiers but not the starters and needing 7 bar transformations hurts even with his baseline.GTV comes close but hes still pants on head retarded difficult to play and has garbage damage potential before getting SSJ4

3 I love Super Buu but theres not much point in ranking them separately since its all the same character at heart.Your offensive scheme only changes in relation to re-dizzies after you have depleted their kI and landed a combo.The thing is gettign into that position essentially requires the same thing by all forms and landing hits has always been the most important thing in a Budokai
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Re: IW Upper Tier List

Post by Brohan on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:26 pm

Omega definantly isn't in the same league as the hig tiers, but not quite top...he's S- with Buutenks. Super Buu's are S- just for the simple fact that he can essentially loop you the same way Bardock can, but has a bettr starter and overally higher stun damage.

Also GT Vegeta has to be top tier, I come from a group of players that find GT Vegeta just as, if not more annoying than Goku. His learning curve is also largely overrated if you stick with him long enough. He's still vastly easier to play compared to Trunks and Hercule.
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Re: IW Upper Tier List

Post by Overlordtico on Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:55 pm

@Brohan

no one ever says they can't play GTV since u keep mentioning everything is easy to u lol. The point is he is not a character that's easy to play, not his combos but to actually win with him w/o fighting like a turtle. He is not an offensive character, he relies more on defense than attack thus he is not top tier cause he can't push like others can. Trunks has always been easy to play for everyone, just not good/easy to make effective in a fight cause his options suck. Nothing can change this, he is a fully developed defensive character and would only be good if his p+k- connected from front.

Also remember none of us use things like Aura Burn, custom characters or the like, they are outside of what we have always considered serious Budokai gameplay since your standard character is amped. It shouldn't even be a factor considered for Tiers.

Super Buu is a good character for a beginner, cause he is easy to use and effective. His absorptions also rely on chance, chance should never be a factor to consider for top characters. W/o absorption he is still good but don't have any rushdowns, zoning or anything to make him special asides from 2nd fastest neutral P and high damage. Maybe if put in B3 as he is he would be a candidate for top.
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Re: IW Upper Tier List

Post by Brohan on Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:30 pm

GTV is essentially Goku, he's top tier lol
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Re: IW Upper Tier List

Post by THTB on Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:05 pm

High execution barrier is NEVER a reason to rate a character lower. Tier lists are based on the highest level of play, where the execution is already mastered. I don't get why you keep rating GTV lower because he requires a lot of dexterity, Cap. That's like saying Viper should be lower than she is because she's difficult to execute with. When you're talking about the highest level of play, that kinda stuff doesn't matter.

The Aura Burn glitch is a factor unless you ban it. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it shouldn't be excluded.

There really seems to be some heavy difficulty in understanding how tier lists are formed. :/

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Re: IW Upper Tier List

Post by Brohan on Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:31 pm

I try to base them on raw matchup numbers taken from actual matches. For example, Yamcha's death bubble should theoretically put him at #1, but in practice, he's just so lacking damage/versatility wise that the other top tiers, save Omega, are just plain better. And this is an observation taken on the thousands of matches I've seen/been in, not jus theory.

but hey, that's me, don't know how these guys do it. Smile
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Re: IW Upper Tier List

Post by Brohan on Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:38 pm

And Aura burning is not totally useless outside of the glitch, using it when you have ki advantage with a character like Goku means GG if you get them in a SDF infinite with some KKKK's thrown in. this all depends on if you're in a stage with walls or not tho
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Re: IW Upper Tier List

Post by AquaTeamV3 on Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:50 pm

Overlordtico wrote:Trunks has always been easy to play for everyone, just not good/easy to make effective in a fight cause his options suck. Nothing can change this, he is a fully developed defensive character and would only be good if his p+k- connected from front.

Maybe it's just bias from the fact that he's one of my mains, but I still don't think he's a terrible character. He may have the double-edged sword (lawl) of a great priority move that can't be chained off of from the front, but all the blocking/dodging/hitting you'll be snabling while spamming P+K builds up stun. You'll inevitably stun your opponent, in which case you'll dash behind them and nab them with a fully charged SS, which wipes out over a bar of HP in SSJ2 -and- gives your opponent around 70% stun for their trouble. PPPP- works great for pressure as well, though it has to be canceled pretty quickly for it to chain into self. Trunks isn't really high, per say, but he's certainly no slouch from what I've seen.

Overlordtico wrote:His absorptions also rely on chance, chance should never be a factor to consider for top characters.

That doesn't really work in the case of Super Buu, though. With his transformations, there's nowhere to go but up. All of them bring some degree of power boost and fatigue boost, which all help to work towards a dizzy. I mean, you lost the uber-sidestep, but what you get in return makes up for it. Now if he had his B2 transformations back then it'd be a different story, since Buu-Tiencha actually lost attack power in exchange for an expanded movelist, which really wasn't that great.

Also, I agree with THTB in that everything that's tourney legal should be a factor in tiers. I personally don't care for Aura Burn, especially since in my mind it takes up a button slot that I'd rather use for something else entirely. That said, are we factoring in yellow capsules as well? I know that they're a bit gimmicky and the loss of a taunt is pretty crucial (especially for guys like Super Buu), but they do exist after all.
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Re: IW Upper Tier List

Post by Brohan on Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:10 pm

Anything that doesn't give you infinite Ki[like super holy water, character specific capsules]is allowed.
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Re: IW Upper Tier List

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:56 pm

Brohan wrote: Also GT Vegeta has to be top tier, I come from a group of players that find GT Vegeta just as, if not more annoying than Goku. His learning curve is also largely overrated if you stick with him long enough. He's still vastly easier to play compared to Trunks and Hercule.

Hes vastly superior but yet most vids I see online still average 9.5 DROPPED COMBO a round.People are scrwewing up basic crap and GTV is idiotically hard to play especially at full speed of a rteal match

THTB wrote:High execution barrier is NEVER a reason to rate a character lower. Tier lists are based on the highest level of play, where the execution is already mastered. I don't get why you keep rating GTV lower because he requires a lot of dexterity, Cap. That's like saying Viper should be lower than she is because she's difficult to execute with. When you're talking about the highest level of play, that kinda stuff doesn't matter.

The Aura Burn glitch is a factor unless you ban it. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it shouldn't be excluded.

There really seems to be some heavy difficulty in understanding how tier lists are formed. :/

Except in the real word people do drop difficult combos and that difficult has been factored in.Strider is the perfect example from MvsC2.GTV is an unusual case because NOTHING he does in a combo is easy to connect to a level thats honestly nonsense.This isnt even factoring how outside of practice mode ypu dont always have perfect placement a banked Transformation to connect px4 easier and a way to avoid the human factor of simply making mistakes in microsecond execution that will lead to punishment

Brohan wrote:I try to base them on raw matchup numbers taken from actual matches. For example, Yamcha's death bubble should theoretically put him at #1, but in practice, he's just so lacking damage/versatility wise that the other top tiers, save Omega, are just plain better. And this is an observation taken on the thousands of matches I've seen/been in, not jus theory.

but hey, that's me, don't know how these guys do it. Smile

Yamcha still doesnt lose to anyone without a 2 teleport advantage on him from the start of the match which also tends to go away over the course of it.The counters to Yamcha tend to be Ki intensive which is non-static and hard to rate.You also get that ki either attacking which doesnt work too well head to head vs Yamcha or charging which both characters can do at about the same speed
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Re: IW Upper Tier List

Post by THTB on Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:06 pm

Cap, what other games you know actually factor in difficulty of use into tier lists besides MvC2 (Which I'm pretty sure that that's not why Strider is low)??? Tier lists are based on the highest level of play, where execution is at the highest point. If that were a factor, Viper in the SFIV series would never be up for mention as top tier. Mishimas in TTT or any other Tekken would never actually be considered good. Fox in Melee would be mid tier. Kung Lao in UMK3 would not be top 3. My main in SSFIV (Gouken) is arguably the easiest character execution-wise in the game, but he is pretty much bottom 5. So on and so forth. The character's TOOLS are the only factors in a tier list, not their execution barriers.

People will learn to be consistent with their combos. No lie, Cap, most people who would see that would just laugh in all honesty. And I'm not saying that to be mean.

EDIT: I actually read up on Strider. His execution is considered a reason why he is rare, but still remains a top tier character and I'm pretty sure in the realm of Marvel, the characters over him ARE just better overall. There's no reason for GTV to be just outside of top tier because of his execution. If anything, he limbos in between because he requires SSJ4 to do any damage, which hurts him early game if he doesn't get the jump on ki advantage.

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Re: IW Upper Tier List

Post by AquaTeamV3 on Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:50 pm

Yeah, I would think that with enough practice you could iron out stuff like dropped combos and whatnot. The only other thing that adds to that equation is the general Budokai factor of the camera switching sides during combos and messing up your directional input entirely. This is mildly annoying even for easier to play characters; at worst you could end up with firing the wrong Death Move or something. For more execution heavy characters, this really does mess with you quite a bit. It's one of my gripes about the series; the only stage that's completely free from this is the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.
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Re: IW Upper Tier List

Post by Brohan on Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:53 pm

AquaTeamV3 wrote:Yeah, I would think that with enough practice you could iron out stuff like dropped combos and whatnot. The only other thing that adds to that equation is the general Budokai factor of the camera switching sides during combos and messing up your directional input entirely. This is mildly annoying even for easier to play characters; at worst you could end up with firing the wrong Death Move or something. For more execution heavy characters, this really does mess with you quite a bit. It's one of my gripes about the series; the only stage that's completely free from this is the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

For the sake of that inconvience, high execution characters like Hercule, Trunk, and GTV are always played in the Time Chamber in my Tournaments
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Re: IW Upper Tier List

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:45 pm

THTB wrote:Cap, what other games you know actually factor in difficulty of use into tier lists besides MvC2 (Which I'm pretty sure that that's not why Strider is low)??? Tier lists are based on the highest level of play, where execution is at the highest point. If that were a factor, Viper in the SFIV series would never be up for mention as top tier. Mishimas in TTT or any other Tekken would never actually be considered good. Fox in Melee would be mid tier. Kung Lao in UMK3 would not be top 3. My main in SSFIV (Gouken) is arguably the easiest character execution-wise in the game, but he is pretty much bottom 5. So on and so forth. The character's TOOLS are the only factors in a tier list, not their execution barriers.

People will learn to be consistent with their combos. No lie, Cap, most people who would see that would just laugh in all honesty. And I'm not saying that to be mean.

EDIT: I actually read up on Strider. His execution is considered a reason why he is rare, but still remains a top tier character and I'm pretty sure in the realm of Marvel, the characters over him ARE just better overall. There's no reason for GTV to be just outside of top tier because of his execution. If anything, he limbos in between because he requires SSJ4 to do any damage, which hurts him early game if he doesn't get the jump on ki advantage.

Like it or not in the real word execution does matter.Its also not a matte rof just dropping combos its a matter of dropping combos int a Budokai usually being radically unsafe and every single thing he has too do involves an extremly difficult combo thats going to be unsafe if he misses ever so slightly and thats before factoring in screen scrolling [Even happens in the ROSAT] and fatigue changing falling speed

Strider is the PERFECT example because on paper he can instantly lockdown and build meter infinitly in an inescapable manner but in reality he has too many similar inputs in a game where the system may sometimes recognize a WCG as a DP and get you killed.Thats why one player uses him with great execution but even he isnt perfect

We have also mentioned his damage is ass before SSJ4 and his transformations too spread out.The only top tier he clearly beats is Dabura [Elbow through his zoning].He could beat Pikkon in theory but even braindead Pikkon play matches perfect GTV and Id like to see how well mixing in canceled spin kicks by Pikkon do against GTVs moves since I think that can even the match up/He loses to Gokus and Yamcha no questions there

So by that estimation where does that leave him?Why...........right next to the top tier but above the rest of the cast right where I said he is.If anything analyzing this might make me rethink Daburas top tier position but I think GTV looks fine where he is
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Re: IW Upper Tier List

Post by THTB on Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:31 pm

So there's risk involved in the strict execution required. Okay? That still doesn't have impact on the tier list because the tier list is, as I've said, based on characters being played to their highest potential. Execution is not a factor at that point because it's at the highest point. So what if only 1 guy plays him that well? Fact is, it's possible to play like that, which is why you can't factor such a thing as execution. If that matter, Japanese players would never consider her as a high-tier character. Same with Akuma, who is arguably the best character in Super. Both characters bleed when tapped, and require a pretty high level of execution to work with.

Like I said, I agree on your points stated like his bad damage pre-SSJ4 and poor matchups vs everyone but Dabura. Hell, I said that's why he limbos in between top and high tier.

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