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What's up with the balance in this game?

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What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by Terrence_42 on Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:57 am

I was playing Pikkon with my Vegeta and I couldn't land a single hit because all of his attacks went through mine, how do you approach Pikkon with Vegeta? FP, P, FK don't work at all he will negate it. Not to mention he starts off with 4-5 bars and me 3 and Vegeta has bad dmg unless he's SSJ4.
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Re: What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by KingDiamond on Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:53 am

IW, B3, or GT Vegeta?
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Re: What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:57 am

Terrence_42 wrote:I was playing Pikkon with my Vegeta and I couldn't land a single hit because all of his attacks went through mine, how do you approach Pikkon with Vegeta? FP, P, FK don't work at all he will negate it. Not to mention he starts off with 4-5 bars and me 3 and Vegeta has bad dmg unless he's SSJ4.

Pikkon is what we call "Top tier" which means hes a really good character

Vegeta assuming IW Vegeta here] is a mid-tier.This means hes a mediocre middle of the pack kind of character

In every fighting game some c characters end up better than others it just so happens that Pikkon is much better than Vegeta in this game

also are you playing a good human player or the AI?
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Re: What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by Terrence_42 on Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:10 am

I was talking about IW Vegeta he's indeed mid-tier but what I don't understand is, while playing the CPU I TCed to attack right back and just while I was doing FPKK his kicks went through it. That's some crazy shit how can he has so much priority? Even in a fighting game there shouldn't be that big of a difference between each characters and it's just between mid and top.

Against Pikkon I guess you take Goku and you spam his elbow.
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Re: What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:36 am

Terrence_42 wrote:I was talking about IW Vegeta he's indeed mid-tier but what I don't understand is, while playing the CPU I TCed to attack right back and just while I was doing FPKK his kicks went through it. That's some crazy shit how can he has so much priority? Even in a fighting game there shouldn't be that big of a difference between each characters and it's just between mid and top.

Against Pikkon I guess you take Goku and you spam his elbow.

You never played Street Fighter 2 did ya?

Pikkon has negation on alot of his attacks which you should know if you know that Gokus Elbow is so good
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Re: What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by MysticFog on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:52 pm

its not really priority that makes the move good in these games...it seems that invincibility frames is what makes characters good and moves more useful..

for example..yamcha is top tier because his normal punch string is godly and negates everything but beam attacks

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Re: What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by Thalès76 on Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:47 am

It happens that Vegeta sucks in this game, but you prolly don't use him right because beating the AI at the hardest difficulty with Vegeta or anybody shouldn't be a problem.
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Re: What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by THTB on Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:04 am

IW isn't MvC2 imbalanced, but it's no angel either.

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Re: What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by KingDiamond on Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:15 am

At least the system is pretty balanced. Characters no.
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Re: What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:55 pm

After the top tiers [who are top for a reason] the majority of the cast is pretty close together for the most part and you only run out of really neat tricks with like the bottom 3 or 4 characters
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Re: What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by Thalès76 on Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:52 am

Not really balanced at all you have a bunch of characters like Piccolo who have not a lot of cancels.
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Re: What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:45 pm

Thalès76 wrote:Not really balanced at all you have a bunch of characters like Piccolo who have not a lot of cancels.

Thats why I said "bottom 4 characters or so".Considering B3 runs out interesting characters in the second tier id say it was a massive improvement.The only really bad characters seem to be Mr.Satan Tien Piccolo and And 17/18.Even Great Saiyaman2 and Pan have a useful cancel
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Re: What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by KingDiamond on Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:21 pm

Yeah it is much better than B3 in that department
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Re: What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by Forte on Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:21 pm

Well, I think the real answer to the OP question is that these games don't really have any serious balance between the characters. The properties & moves for the majority of characters is pretty much applied at random. So yea, shit like Yamcha & Pikkon eating moves happens. I don't really know if that speaks to the game being unbalanced as much as it shows the nature of the game. There's really no way to explain how the best characters are so good, and the worst characters SO bad.

With the talk of tiers in IW, it kind of makes me wonder, if the top tier characters dominate the cast so completely, after a certain point, the rest of the characters become irrelevant. Like even if Nappa is not straight garbage anymore, does he really have anything to stand against Pikkon? So when talking about balance in competitive play, should Nappa even be included? At a competitive level nobody should be using Nappa, and he doesn't have anything relevant in matchups against top tier characters.

Frankly I think the only balance that matters is the balance between the top tier characters, and in that respect IW might actually be pretty ok.
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Re: What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by Heromaster111 on Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:57 am

Oh shit a Forte sighting lol

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Re: What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by THTB on Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:08 pm

We need more competitive IW play to determine the game's balance, really.

From what I understand, the top tier isn't as dominant as a lot of us believe...and I think Cap's actually highlighted that in the past. Hell, actually, Diz touched on it in his Cell guide.

-How do i deal with Nullifying Starters?

~Dealing with Nullifying Starters
might be the most difficult issue Cell has to face,
characters such as Yamcha or Pikkon won't allow you
to stick in that P of yours very frequently,
but where there is a will there is a way right?
No, not exactly, trying to rely on P in this situation
is not good for your health and nervs,
but there is always a down to any strategy.
If you're beeing pressured by Yamchas PPPP- there is no
way to stick in that P of yours, but you can just guard,
dash back and hit that E or a Death Move on him
to deal some damage, it might result in a counter hit
which juggles the poor Yamcha and gives Cell a huge advantage
to burn some Ki of the Yamcha player.
Your defense must be perfect to achive it but am sure with time and training
it's a valuable strategy vs Nullyfing starters.
However DON'T try to counter it with p+k,
one slow nullifier can never beat 2 quick ones.

-How can I escape Gokus/GT Gokus <p+k lunge?

~There are surprisingly many ways to do so but all are risky,
starting with Aura Dash + Down or up you can fire an E to his back
and make him juggle or place a P to his back,
the timeing to do so is still very tricky
and you won't have alot of success
if he doesen't decide to cancel that p+k after <p+k.
So a side dash or back dash followed by a solid Guard does do the trick.
IMPORTANT: Don't try to counter it with Energy Blasts,
they will just be reflected except at the start of the <p+k animation,
but you have to be quick to not get busted on that one.
Back dash followed by a solid Kamehameha
is relativley useful for that kind of approach.

In other words, the higher the level of play, the more balanced the game actually becomes due to player capabilities.

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Re: What's up with the balance in this game?

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:26 am

The only guy that wins every Exchange is Yamcha.Pikkon is REALLY tough to beat but his priority isnt penultimate and ive actually broken his negation on the last hit with Fat Buu.The Gokus elbow has to be used perfectly and honestly ive never seen anyone use him up to the way he is billed ESPCIALLY when it comes to bouncing off Pikkon/Yamchas priority

What holds Yamcha back is having ass for damage.Yeah he has a DM infinite but its got tight timing and WFF takes 2 seconds to finish for 3-400 some odd damage at best.You simply cant fatigue with one combo using him because WFF is too damn slow and since he isnt hitting anyone during that time his Ki isnt going anywhere either and this can be a brutal disadvantage vs high baseline opponents

Pikkons weaknesses arent too easy to exploit since beating his priority is nearly as hard but he takes less effort to play at the top of his potential.His DMs are pretty damaging and his no struggle ultimate does huge damage his combos dont have a big learning curve and while he can infinite he never honestly needs to.His biggest problems comes from the occasional vulnerabilities on his DMs.You have to actually know things like the position on whatever stage your fighting in since walls can screw his combos up and leave him vulnerable

The Gokus rock if you can use the elbow perfectly.Now in theory its simply a matter of mastering a fast cancel and never throwing out the headbutt potion of the chain.I actually have never bothered adapting to his playstyle maybe because i spent too many years using >P,K,K.You can be ki blasted out of it which isnt THAT impossible off a basic E.The Gokus also have a problem like Yamcha with SDF being to slow to consistantly fatigue on its own before either of them reach SSJ3/4.Using the elbow also doesnt have alot of hits [one that hits] so they dont build Ki too well during the RD portion

Dabura is the only guy that can break Yamchas P starter but you also have to remember that he moves a tiny bit forward every chain which can get him outside of his ideal range.Tacking the third hit to force some knockback generates another problem with recovery if they dodge/AG letting them close in if theyspend a bit of ki and guess right.The spear throw is also great but iit isnt hard to dodge.The thing we often forget is that Dabura is actually still good up close with fast chains some good negating moves and a juggle throw so he would still be high tier even without his zoning

GTV is great and potentialy right behind the Gokus in the tiers but until I see somebody other than Anelia play him im gonna go out on a limb and say hes fine in the near top range.Lets not forget hes got shit damage before SSJ4 where his 700 damage DM puts him into about the average rAange.Hes a little lacking in reach outside of the lunge too which compensates to an extent

After thatits not much of a disscussion since things level off alot and even Cells 1 speed P isnt as dominate as it was in B3
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