Re: BL Tier List

by **MysticFog** Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:35 pm

Arshaq wrote:canceling + strategies > understanding game

i don't understand your points at all because according to you...tiers are all the matter. Seriously, take the argument someone else. >_>

....your in the fuckin tier topic telling him to stop argueing about tiers...do you understand what the problem is with this? :/

Arshaq wrote:You'd be surprised at what people fall for...People will just hold guard against someone charging an attack. I mean I do it, but let's use Gogetassj4666, he used charged attacks in countless battles against Victoriano. Always worked. And i highly doubt Vic sucked.

well..if he kept falling for it over and over again..then he doesnt have good adapting skills..

by Guest Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:56 pm

....your in the fuckin tier topic telling him to stop argueing about tiers...do you understand what the problem is with this? :/

It didn't come out right.

MysticFog wrote:

well..if he kept falling for it over and over again..then he doesnt have good adapting skills..

Pretty sure he's as good as the other B3 players on this site.

by **Soriphen** Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:57 pm

Ok, before going on about how he used charge attacks on Vic and all...bring the video here and show us. I'd like to see it.

by Guest Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:02 am

he has over 600 videos.

by **Soriphen** Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:36 pm

Okay, never mind the video. Point is, Vic and Gogeta play with each other a lot...There's your answer. The fact that they only have very few people to play with means that they've adapted to each other. Gogeta has adapted and knows Vic inside out now, which shows that he's the superior player because he took advantage of that. Vic may be "as" good as the players here, but, does he have the metagame? That's where skill between players is seperated. You can't base skill only on technique, especially since Vic usually only plays Gogeta.

In a sense, I can say the same about myself. I have extremely good technique in SBAR, but, all I can do is play CPU and I learn jack shit about metagame from a CPU. The only thing that saves my ass from real human players is 40% technique and 60% of the metagame that I luckily carried over from the many other fighters I've played (against humans of course).

Anyway, my point is that Gogeta figured Vic out since they only play eachother. Vic just isn't as good in adapting as Gogeta is...maybe cause Gogeta played more people and has more experience changing up his gameplay. So, don't base skill solely on technique.

by Forte Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:40 am

I have to side w/ Arshaq here, if only because none of the rest of you actually play this game. I'm pretty sure none of you have owned it at any point besides Fog. Though his logic is flawed I think what matters most is that he actually plays the game. I don't think any of you can impose your views on how the game works, when you don't play it, haven't played it, and don't plan on playing it like Arshaq has.

Also who the fuck cares about a BL tier list? Rename the forum to Arshaq's Masterbatorium, imo

by **Soriphen** Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:56 pm

Of course he plays the game. I haven't played it near as much as him. The whole point of the argument is that based on what Arshaq says, it clearly shows that he doesn't even know how much more knowledge is needed to make a BL tier list. He can't just make one now, rather, he has to set a goal and delve in the game deeper.

In the end, there's really no point of another tier list anyway.

by Thalès76 Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:12 am

Doesn't matter if you've played the Budokai games for 5 years lol, we're talking about BL, it's not even a Budokai game it's completly different. I'm good in IW yet in BL I can barely beat the AI without spamming. He does have a point, the AI in the other Budokai games is complete joke compared to BL.

by **THTB** Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:32 am

Thalès76 wrote:Doesn't matter if you've played the Budokai games for 5 years lol, we're talking about BL, it's not even a Budokai game it's completly different. I'm good in IW yet in BL I can barely beat the AI without spamming. He does have a point, the AI in the other Budokai games is complete joke compared to BL.

BL is the same base engine as Budokai...

Either way, the AI doesn't account for a tier list. At all.

And Forte, I've owned the game myself, lol.

by Guest Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:55 am

Soriphen wrote:Okay, never mind the video. Point is, Vic and Gogeta play with each other a lot...There's your answer. The fact that they only have very few people to play with means that they've adapted to each other. Gogeta has adapted and knows Vic inside out now, which shows that he's the superior player because he took advantage of that. Vic may be "as" good as the players here, but, does he have the metagame? That's where skill between players is seperated. You can't base skill only on technique, especially since Vic usually only plays Gogeta.

You do realize that Gogeta was losing most of the games when Vic began using Buu? And I’m pretty sure no one on this site would stand a chance against Gogeta. He’s played B3 almost 5 times longer than I have, mastered EVERY CHARACTER in the game and still plays to this day. I played…for 10 months or so. Use half the cast and rape anyone and everyone. Moreover, I’ve played any “good” player online.

I agree with that fact that you have to adapt. But the new “amazing” player I was telling you about. He’s the guy I perfect twice, back to back online. Unlike most people who have a “set” strategy just like the AI. I use different moves. Why I’m fresh.

Soriphen wrote: In a sense, I can say the same about myself. I have extremely good technique in SBAR, but, all I can do is play CPU and I learn jack shit about metagame from a CPU.

Define technique. SBAR CPU LOL, nuff said. Any AI that used ALL of its ki in the first five seconds of that game deserves to be reprogrammed. Maybe Dimps realized how retarded that was and changed it in BL.

Soriphen wrote: The only thing that saves my ass from real human players is 40% technique and 60% of the metagame that I luckily carried over from the many other fighters I've played (against humans of course).

What saves my ass is thinking outside the box. And that also applies to history. Every war is won by doing something deemed “reckless” at the time.

Soriphen wrote: Anyway, my point is that Gogeta figured Vic out since they only play eachother. Vic just isn't as good in adapting as Gogeta is...maybe cause Gogeta played more people and has more experience changing up his gameplay.* So, don't base skill solely on technique.

Are you using technique as a synonym of “consistency”?

*I accidentally address the bolded part in the first paragraph and throughout my essay.

Forte wrote:I have to side w/ Arshaq here, if only because none of the rest of you actually play this game.

Thank you. I’ll stop being flamboyant around you.

Forte wrote:I'm pretty sure none of you have owned it at any point besides Fog.

None of them have done a combo past 2000 dmg offline. I find it hard to believe the very same people made THE tier list.

Forte wrote: Though his logic is flawed I think what matters most is that he actually plays the game.

Exactly, the amount of shit I’ve discovered in this game is ridiculous. What Mexican Gogeta did for B3. I basically did that for BL. You guys have no idea how much I changed online play.

Forte wrote: I don't think any of you can impose your views on how the game works, when you don't play it, haven't played it, and don't plan on playing it like Arshaq has.

Your argument(s) are… “you don’t know technical terms.” Fuck that shit, we’ve established I’ve been doing things just because they work. Up until that point, I didn’t even know there were strategies such as “zoning”, “camping” or w/e you guys make up.

Even funnier, you guys say…no frame data. Where is yours. I’m pretty sure I have a better idea of how many frame each stun last because I DO the combos. I know which chain requires fast(er) canceling and which don’t.

Which also proves my point: I need to make a new tier list. As much as Nnamz contributed, he loved Piccolo. *sniff sniff* ewww I smell stinky bias.

Forte wrote: Also who the fuck cares about a BL tier list? Rename the forum to Arshaq's Masterbatorium, imo

Way to ruin it. >_>

Thalès76 wrote:Doesn't matter if you've played the Budokai games for 5 years lol, we're talking about BL, it's not even a Budokai game it's completly different.

A little too extreme, but I agree with you nonetheless. However, there are some striking similarities (no many though).

Thalès76 wrote: I'm good in IW yet in BL I can barely beat the AI without spamming. He does have a point, the AI in the other Budokai games is complete joke compared to BL

Yeah, you’ve seen my videos where it’s 1 bar VS max CPU & max bar. Freaking ridiculous, I either win by…1 hit or I lose when the CPU has a bar or so left. Either way, you know what you’re talking about. Brownie points for you.

THTB wrote:
BL is the same base engine as Budokai...

*facepalm* Engine is the same, strategies are completely different. Engine don’t define a game, the way it’s played is. And BL is sort of similar to SBAR. Comparing it to B3 or any previous Budokai installment would be preposterous.

THTB wrote:Either way, the AI doesn't account for a tier list. At all.

Ok, an AI that can do…frame perfect canceling, never messed up a combo, utilizes the broken defensive system, uses the broken ki system to its advantage, can perform 3000 dmg combos, with frame perfect reaction AND that recognizes PATTERNS is nothing short of amazing.

You have no clue how difficult the BL AI is. It beats me very often and I find myself raping everyone else online. And if you spam >S* from far away to start combos, after a game or two the AI will realize what you’re doing and counter it.

THTB wrote:And Forte, I've owned the game myself, lol.

You do, but I bet there’s a crusty layer of mold and dust on top of it.

And please, don’t bring up, “BL has no good players online”. Stupidest argument I’ve heard all my life. Some of the players I play would perfect you as easily as I perfect them. You guys take my skill for granted. The way Chibi Gogeta destroys everyone in SBAR. I do the same in BL. I might have an ego, but I’m a notch or two above everyone else online. No question about it. Some of the combos I do online we’re condemned as “impossible” by you guys. Yet, here I am doing…combos that were “impossible” and much more. Most of you can’t even chain 3 Big bangs offline (in BL). I chain that many online.

/maturity

Fuck you all if you don't agree with me! I WANT MY CANDY NAOW! AND I WANT THEM DONE MY WAY!!!!

(just like Hamilton [1790s, Constitutional Congress] for those of you who get the reference)

by **MysticFog** Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:59 pm

None of them have done a combo past 2000 dmg offline. I find it hard to believe the very same people made THE tier list.

:/....erm...i made a combo video like the same month BL came out..with most of all the characters going over 2000...its not hard

by Guest Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:49 pm

MysticFog wrote:

:/....erm...i made a combo video like the same month BL came out..with most of all the characters going over 2000...its not hard

Thanks for addressing all parts of the question. BL Tier List - Page 3 Icon_jokercolor

by **MysticFog** Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:49 pm

well im just sick of you thinking you know way more about stuff then we do. sure we are rusty cause we havent played it in a long ass time cause it sucks.

but im pretty sure we know way more about it then you do

by FurFarm Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:01 pm

MysticFog wrote:but im pretty sure we know way more about it then you do

"We" would include you. The only point I've seen thus far come out of you is a form of an appeal to empirical evidence (playing longer than Arshaq). Problem with that is Arshaq, too, has empirical knowledge about the game, which would reduce your argument down to this:

Arshaq has been playing for x.
You have been playing for y+x.
Since y+x>x, you automatically are a better player.

The problem with which is, just because you've been going at it longer doesn't mean you have been going it as, keyword, effectively, as Arshaq has.

And for all I know, maybe you have or haven't. Your argument is a moot point on its own, though; you should probably save it as reinforcement for when you've exercised an argument with more merit, but hey.

by Guest Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:12 pm

FurFarm wrote:

"We" would include you. The only point I've seen thus far come out of you is a form of an appeal to empirical evidence (playing longer than Arshaq). Problem with that is Arshaq, too, has empirical knowledge about the game, which would reduce your argument down to this:

Fuck Chemistry Honors. Like seriously.

by Guest Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:15 pm

MysticFog wrote:well im just sick of you thinking you know way more about stuff then we do. sure we are rusty cause we havent played it in a long ass time cause it sucks.

but i'm pretty sure we know way more about it then you do

Forte pointed out I do actually know more "stuff" than players who played the game for...two months. Tops.

Rusty doesn't do anything. I quit BL for three months. I came back. I could cancel just as fast and my reflexes remained the same.

You might know. Then again, who needs to know technical terms if you can apply those techniques without realizing you're using them?

by **MysticFog** Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:19 pm

FurFarm wrote:
"We" would include you. The only point I've seen thus far come out of you is a form of an appeal to empirical evidence (playing longer than Arshaq). Problem with that is Arshaq, too, has empirical knowledge about the game, which would reduce your argument down to this:

Arshaq has been playing for x.
You have been playing for y+x.
Since y+x>x, you automatically are a better player.

The problem with which is, just because you've been going at it longer doesn't mean you have been going it as, keyword, effectively, as Arshaq has.

erm...i dont really know who you are but whatever. "we" would include a whole list a people who played Burst Limit. We have documents and forums from our history with experimenting with every character to most of their potential. perhaps Arshaq has played it longer then us i could care less.

but the fact is that he thinks online tactics and tactics against a flawed AI CPU should merit towards a tier list. he can go ahead and make an ONLINE tier list if he feels its appropriate. but we will never let online or computer controlled characters determine a tier list for a fighting game. if you know the history of fighting games there has not been ONE tier list based off of those criteria, because frankly it doesnt matter its all about offline PvP

Forte wrote: I don't think any of you can impose your views on how the game works, when you don't play it, haven't played it, and don't plan on playing it like Arshaq has.

..he just somehow thinks you played it better then we have, which for some reason is the same arguement you have which is m00t, being that none of us who made the tier list actually played the game (which is kinda stupid for someone to think so)

i wouldnt take what forte says really in consideration anyway because he never contributed to anything here really..cept for maybe a few combos here and there from the scattered times he visits..i mean frankly..im pretty sure he doesnt care about these games anymore

Arshaq wrote:
Forte pointed out I do actually know more "stuff" than players who played the game for...two months. Tops.

Rusty doesn't do anything. I quit BL for three months. I came back. I could cancel just as fast and my reflexes remained the same.

You might know. Then again, who needs to know technical terms if you can apply those techniques without realizing you're using them?

1. see above...

2. 3 months isn't shit compared to a year you child.

3. this is kind of a stupid way of thinking. it's like school or a test for that matter..you might know how to do them in your head per say but you cant prove your knowledge by simply telling the teacher "you know how". you have to actually learn the terms and be able to explain them in words.

by Thalès76 Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:20 am

To Arshaq, yeah I know it still can be called a Budokai game but everything is different. And about the AI, I just perfected the AI twice with Goku lol, but he didn't have 6+ bars like you, what I did is I did a combo at the beginning with his Back SS starter, 1500 damage, then I guard broke him by transforming, after that I did a quick BSS to finish him off with another combo lol, this shit works everytime. But with the AI having 6+ health bars it wouldn't work, damn I need to get online.

by Forte Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:12 am

MysticFog wrote:
i wouldnt take what forte says really in consideration anyway because he never contributed to anything here really..cept for maybe a few combos here and there from the scattered times he visits..i mean frankly..im pretty sure he doesnt care about these games anymore

Pretty much it went like this. I started doing stuff for burst limit, then by the 2nd day I pretty much realized the game was awful, and that you can't approach it like a budokai game. It simply doesn't play like any of the others. Online or off. I did stuff so HyperD, but nobody cares about HyperD or SuperDBZ in the least. Budokai competitive imo.

Regardless of whether it's online or not, Arshaq has the most experience with this game, and I have no doubt he's better than everyone on this board, regardless of how many years they've been playing dragonball games that aren't burst limit. I don't see why that shakes any of you so deeply. It's probably just because it's Arshaq. If this were 1SSJ4Gogeta doing an SBAR tier list I'd side with him as well, because he actually knows how to play the game better than the rest of us.

This tier list was made with people trying to impose Budokai theory fighter on a game none of us played correctly in the first place. How do you guys even know what's actually viable in offline Burst limit? I don't see how Arshaq's tier list would any less valid than this one.

But again. This game is awful and you should all move on to better games, or at least Budokai training mode.

by Forte Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:15 am

Arshaq wrote:
Thanks for addressing all parts of the question.

Oh yeah double post for this. Watching people answer multi-quote responses back & forth is one of my internet pet peeves. It's the worst kind of argument, and ultimately strays away from the original point.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:13 am

Fog:

You do realize none of you have even played against another player. What gives you the right to make a tier list if you hypothesize cause-and-effect correlation. You possibly cannot say Bardock is good because of Heat Phlanx. Bardock is a lower tier than Krillen. His S chains are slow and >S is of no use because it doesn’t chain unless the opponent is guarding. Riot Javelin and Super Riot Javelin are…fast. That’s it. I may not know how many frames they lag after, but I do know there is a 3 second recovery time. Horrible situation to be in if the opponent is close. Then HP, easy to get by. Just spam neutral E or hold shield. That’s all there is too it.

Your list is slow flawed it’s not even funny. Biggest one is saying Piccolo is god tier because of his base stats. The only base stat that make a difference is speed. Biggest and probably the only stat that change the outcome of a battle.

Vegeta> Piccolo for too many reasons. Nnamz was biased. All there is to say.

While your tiers might have been “well done” a year and some ago. With all the new discoveries, strategies, combos, etc… it should be really different.

In addition, basing your argument around me playing people online and AIs is ridiculous because you faced….nothing. LOL. Just because I decimate everyone online. It does not mean they are bad. SSY4, fucking 6 big bang combo 6200. I can rarely ever pull off a 6 bb combo for a whooping (not really) 6000 dmg. Zeus, the Vegeta player I perfected. He’s basically a notch above everyone else I’ve ever played because of his creative strategies and different style. Yet I still win. See a pattern.

The closest we’ve come to “offline PvP” are MY ONLINE VIDEOS. Might be lag and delay but we still bring ridiculously high leveled fights in a game that everyone thought impossible because of the broken [insert an excuses that depicts how much of a whiny little boy you are because you cannot get used to a different system] .

I am better than all of you. It’s a fact. No offence to any of you, but I played forte. I was restraining myself (no AS, no S chains, no /\E or >E and <E outside of combos). I still dominated them. It took Aneila…13 fights to beat my KID GOHAN after constantly spamming

Forte contributed much more than any of you contributed to any other game(Naruto).

A year>3 months. My knowledge and experience of that game far outweight all of your combined because:

1. BL is a totally different game than previous installments

2. I play the game an hour or two every week

3. Played the game an hour or so a day during the summer

4. Contributed a ton

5. Considered on the same level as SJ2 in BL

Look, why do you believe knowing technical terms and when to use them is better than using them without realizing you’re using them? I constantly use them to win games and I figured them out myself. Without prior knowledge of this site or mentioned terms.

Thales: CPU is broken. I mean I can perfect it if it has 5 bars (several characters have 5k combos) but max bars is too hard. >_>

Forte:

thank you for having common sense. You made me feel all warm and fuzzy. =3

by **MysticFog** Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:21 am

Forte wrote:
Regardless of whether it's online or not, Arshaq has the most experience with this game, and I have no doubt he's better than everyone on this board, regardless of how many years they've been playing dragonball games that aren't burst limit. I don't see why that shakes any of you so deeply. It's probably just because it's Arshaq. If this were 1SSJ4Gogeta doing an SBAR tier list I'd side with him as well, because he actually knows how to play the game better than the rest of us.

This tier list was made with people trying to impose Budokai theory fighter on a game none of us played correctly in the first place. How do you guys even know what's actually viable in offline Burst limit? I don't see how Arshaq's tier list would any less valid than this one.

doubtful..i mean it would be diff if it was gogeta though cause he has been around forever with all of us and proved his is really good, arshaq just speaks out of his ass and never proves anything really so i dont see how YOU can think he is better then everyone, when only the past couple monthes he has existed around here :/

when arshaq stops being a troll and doesnt try to explain newbie ass tactics like "you can just EEEEE the person over and over and its a good strategy" and posts some evidence of him being good (like gogeta has many many times) then maybe ill start to take him seriously. But then again he probably wont be able to because if he makes VS matches itll just be online matches and wont count towards any actual credibility.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:26 am

Answer reply.

Gogeta has posted less videos than me. I don't understand what point your trying to make. :S

by **MysticFog** Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:55 am

Vegeta> Piccolo for too many reasons. Nnamz was biased. All there is to say.

hmm..it might have been a little biased just because he was nnamz favorite character, all the more reason why nnamz experimented him and was best with him, im sure you and your little online buddies never experimented with him as much as nnamz did back then.

While your tiers might have been “well done” a year and some ago. With all the new discoveries, strategies, combos, etc… it should be really different.

like what? your stupid "kara throwing" which isnt even fucking kara throwing and you still try to explain that it is? your new strategies and discoveries are all made up terms and patterns that you think would actually help in a game where in actuality it has no usefulness at all, it just soothes your gigantic ego when you make up your own discoveries that nobody cares about but you and your pre-pubesent little friends that you have on an online friendlist.

arshaq = "hai gais! guess what?!?!?! you can just EEEE SPAM to get out of alot of shit!"

his friends = "Zomg NO WAI!!!!"

arshaq = "GAIS!! I JUST DID 6 BB CANCELS!!"

his friends = *SKEET SKEET*

congratulations arshaq you discovered things we found out the first week we played this game. go pet your dick some more thinking you did though its cool man.

In addition, basing your argument around me playing people online and AIs is ridiculous because you faced….nothing. LOL. Just because I decimate everyone online. It does not mean they are bad.

yea it does actually. we all played each other here online at one point and weve had tournaments (and alot more people). after a couple monthes or so everyone stopped coming here because basically..we played the shit out of BL and there was nothing else really to discuss..it was already a horrible game with a very flawed KI system and such that nobody bothered ever again. I am pretty sure if i went online right now and searched for a week to find one match i would completely decimate them. does that make me good? no..

just shut up.

The closest we’ve come to “offline PvP” are MY ONLINE VIDEOS. .

blah blah you see cause when you have OFFline videos then you can say youve had OFFline experience. and that has credibility.

I am better than all of you. It’s a fact. No offence to any of you, but I played forte. I was restraining myself (no AS, no S chains, no /\E or >E and <E outside of combos). I still dominated them. It took Aneila…13 fights to beat my KID GOHAN after constantly spamming

big whoop?? you forced people to play a game they dont play anymore so im pretty sure they dont care whether you win or lose so im sure they were just in there to make you stop being so homo-erotic in the forums and chatboxes, dont try to sound high and mighty cause you fought a couple people here and won. if you were here when we first started and you could beat nnamz, kimimaro, gogeta and so forth...maybe you couldve gained some credibility as a good fighter and not as a random tween ego maniac.

Forte contributed much more than any of you contributed to any other game(Naruto).

mmmk...what does this have to do with anything?..im pretty sure ive played and contributed to bleach and saint seiya more then he did but that has nothing to do with this discussion. your an idiot.

A year>3 months. My knowledge and experience of that game far outweight all of your combined because:

..time playing it...perhaps...knowledge?...doubt it.

4. Contributed a ton

Wrong.

Look, why do you believe knowing technical terms and when to use them is better than using them without realizing you’re using them? I constantly use them to win games and I figured them out myself. Without prior knowledge of this site or mentioned terms.

yea but you see...the vets discovered and utilized the cancelling system, so you wouldve never known shit about anything if goryus and cap and nnamz and such didnt do jack for the community and explained the terms and system way back then. your using a system they discovered back then and figured out to do them and had been practicing ever since...its kinda bullshit you think your made of solid gold and figured out EVERYTHING on your own including alot of the combos we all used to do back then.

Arshaq wrote:Answer reply.

Gogeta has posted less videos than me. I don't understand what point your trying to make. :S

:/...he was here...posting all of his useful info and discoveries..with us and discussing them.

this was before you got the money from your parents to go buy the game dude.

anyways..im going to nap...ill see what other nonsense you make up when i wake back up.

by **THTB** Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:10 pm

Massive text of rape...no real need for me to say anything really LOL.

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