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Your ideas for a new Budokai

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Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by THTB on Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:11 am

What systems would you suggest for a new Budokai? Here are some of mine:


1. Physics Engine: The next Budokai should use the B3/IW physics engine.

2. Specials and Supers are RT: Pretty self-explanatory. Specials lack the screen freeze like in SB/BL, and no Super is a cutscene Super.

3. Damage Scaling Tweaks: Damage scaling is now 4% on every hit, and specials/supers are affected by the scaling. In compensation, attack and defense boosts are larger.

4. Ki System Revamp: Here's my proposal for the Ki system. Instead of the traditional 7-bar system we've had, there are 3 bars max that do not regenerate automatically, but now regenerates when taking damage (Not as much as when hitting an opponent, but enough so that TCs still are very useful). Ki blasts and specials, like in BL, do not cost ki, but due to the tweaked scaling, the specials are not as damaging in combos (1 bar can be used for EX specials). Unlike BL, though, teleports cost 2 bars. All Supers cost 3 bars, and transformations drain 1 bar. Because of the new Ki system, there's no more baselines.

5. Light/Heavy Attack Buttons (L&H): Sorta like a cross between P&K and R&S. L&H functions very similar to R&S, but instead of only H attacks having cancel points, L attacks have cancel points as well...and not every H attack will have armor frames...only the ones that can be cancelled and will only have 1 hit of super armor. Also, only H attacks can be super-cancelled. My idea behind this new attack pair is to balance R&S without making S attacks completely useless as starters. Basically, L starters will be useful because they are fast...there will only be a handful of H starters that have enough armor to become staple chains you'll regularly use, though they won't be as dominating as old S chains. For example, Piccolo's SSS chain is now HLH, each input is 1 hit except for the last hit, which is 2, and first H is cancellable...this allows for it to still function as a powerful zoning tool and great starter, though now it doesn't seriously outprioritize everything and you can't cancel it at every point. Or Trunks's SSSS chain is now HLLL, all hits are cancellable...he still has a good starter, but to cancel this string after the first hit is risky since you don't have the armor to prevent interruptions.

6. IW Aura Dashing: IMO, there's no need for SB aura dashing if the attack buttons are gonna work like I proposed.

7. Throw Improvements: Damage on throws have been increased quite a bit (Damage is multiplied by 2 for non-juggle throws and by 1.5 for juggle throws). Also, the throw range has been improved to work as well as the E+G throws in IW.

I want to keep Budokai as a game where keeping on the pressure wins matches, but my ideas are meant to give players more viable options for damage. I feel, using these subsystems, Budokai can be significantly improved. Smile

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Brohan on Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:51 pm

Assists-Make it like MvC, in that you could call another character in to help extend your combo. Any hits after the assist are scaled back 20%. ex. 65%, asisist, 85%, 81%, ect.

Throws for every button

Have a special effect to ki blasts, for example, have a paralyzing effect to Piccolo's, but have Broly's heat seeking.

Cancel Tutorial-This is essential if Dimps wants people to take Budokai serisouly as a fighter. Pretty self explanitory, teaches new players the how to cancel, basic combos, infinites ect.

Capsules need to show up again.

Character Creator-Just use a tweaked version of DBO's. This would give players more of a reason to play online. Races include Saiyan, Namek, Majin, Yardrat, Acrosion[Freeza's race], Kaioshin, and Human.Characters would be able to select 2 deathmoves and an ultimate from any character from thier respective race, while Kaioshins would be able to select fom anyone's.

Online- Ranked Match, Normal Match, Custom Match, Endless, Quick Match, Tournament, and for Gods sake a decent netcode.

Fresh Story Mode-Kinda like SBAR, but more creative.

This is al I can think of.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Dizlord on Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:59 pm

I don't know if it's rather a problem or just simply a preference, but what i always found rather annoying or critical with budokai games is that with all the high mobility you have, due to 3D engine, that you really can't open up someone unless they make a mistake, that makes the budokai series a rather Poke intensive game, whoever has the best starter/poke/priority has a huge advantage.

To work around that is to simply implement high/low blocking and of course high/low attacks, this can be done even with block on a button so you will still be able to Cancel charged moves. It would certainly help out characters that are lacking fast attacks/ranged attacks/guard point attacks. There is no need to implement jump however this would certainly destroy that "budokai" feeling.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Brohan on Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:28 pm

Nice! High low guarding would be intense because of the heavy rushdown you see in these games. Seriously, how long do you think you could properly guard an attacking opponent before you mess up? Good one.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by THTB on Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:59 pm

I don't necessarily think that's a big problem, and would probably make Budokai's offense TOO powerful, since you can already do cancels to make strings safe. Your opponent would not only have to deal with relatively safe pressure, but also high/low mixups. What is a big problem is that there's imbalances in the strings. Some characters have viable strings, some don't. And it's largely due to how super armor works. R&S gives armor on just about every S attack, and becomes a matter of how well placed armor frames are. P&K works best without it, so the game comes down to who has the best quick starter.

With my ideas, L&H strikes a balance between the two, or at least attempts to...and at the same time forces you to be aware if the strings are balanced right. Because the armor is not so heavy with my ideas (when balanced properly), you can't just plow through characters by mashing out the same high priority chain.

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by lordantonius on Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:47 pm

I really like both THTB's and Dizord's ideas. B3/IW engine is must. Kai canceling is a must too.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:06 am

Changes

Give certain chains SF4 style armor breaker properties.That way instead of just overhauling the entire system or nerfing priority you can just have a method to power through negating Chains like Yamcha or Pikkons.You also now have no real reason to spread negation around the whole cast.Also remember Yamcha and Pikkon were 2 characters which did have ways to get around.Completely overhauling the system isnt needed

Keep the baseline system BUT have everyone start at 3 or 4 Ki.Now everyone starts out even and the fighting starts immediately

Add more variety to movesets.Nobody should just have 2 generic moves that shoot a functionally identical projectile with different damage anymore.There should be more things like "burst" style moves Un-TCable Radials throw specials like Headbanger or even combo starting moves like Assault rain or Solar Flare.Improvements to moves ala SSJ4 DMs couldnt hurt either

More chargable stuns comboable ultimates mobility and ways to break guard.We have all the tools to make the game ever more wide open as is its just a matter of spreading the love around.Ginyu and Trunks for instance have their HS dive kick that can break guard from half screen imagine that kind of option on better all around characters.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Nnamz on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:47 am

THTB wrote:What systems would you suggest for a new Budokai? Here are some of mine:


1. Physics Engine: The next Budokai should use the B3/IW physics engine.

2. Specials and Supers are RT: Pretty self-explanatory. Specials lack the screen freeze like in SB/BL, and no Super is a cutscene Super.

3. Damage Scaling Tweaks: Damage scaling is now 4% on every hit, and specials/supers are affected by the scaling. In compensation, attack and defense boosts are larger.

4. Ki System Revamp: Here's my proposal for the Ki system. Instead of the traditional 7-bar system we've had, there are 3 bars max that do not regenerate automatically, but now regenerates when taking damage (Not as much as when hitting an opponent, but enough so that TCs still are very useful). Ki blasts and specials, like in BL, do not cost ki, but due to the tweaked scaling, the specials are not as damaging in combos (1 bar can be used for EX specials). Unlike BL, though, teleports cost 2 bars. All Supers cost 3 bars, and transformations drain 1 bar. Because of the new Ki system, there's no more baselines.

5. Light/Heavy Attack Buttons (L&H): Sorta like a cross between P&K and R&S. L&H functions very similar to R&S, but instead of only H attacks having cancel points, L attacks have cancel points as well...and not every H attack will have armor frames...only the ones that can be cancelled and will only have 1 hit of super armor. Also, only H attacks can be super-cancelled. My idea behind this new attack pair is to balance R&S without making S attacks completely useless as starters. Basically, L starters will be useful because they are fast...there will only be a handful of H starters that have enough armor to become staple chains you'll regularly use, though they won't be as dominating as old S chains. For example, Piccolo's SSS chain is now HLH, each input is 1 hit except for the last hit, which is 2, and first H is cancellable...this allows for it to still function as a powerful zoning tool and great starter, though now it doesn't seriously outprioritize everything and you can't cancel it at every point. Or Trunks's SSSS chain is now HLLL, all hits are cancellable...he still has a good starter, but to cancel this string after the first hit is risky since you don't have the armor to prevent interruptions.

6. IW Aura Dashing: IMO, there's no need for SB aura dashing if the attack buttons are gonna work like I proposed.

7. Throw Improvements: Damage on throws have been increased quite a bit (Damage is multiplied by 2 for non-juggle throws and by 1.5 for juggle throws). Also, the throw range has been improved to work as well as the E+G throws in IW.

I want to keep Budokai as a game where keeping on the pressure wins matches, but my ideas are meant to give players more viable options for damage. I feel, using these subsystems, Budokai can be significantly improved. Smile


Disagree violently with 1. Agree totally with 2-7.

The physics in B3 and IW are horrible. Infinite combos to not belong in fighting games. They are oversights by the devs. They got rid of those in the SB games and in BL for a reason. They were too lazy to get rid of them for IW, since IW used much of B3's engines to save money.

SB and BL have superior physics, I'd go with that, or something new. No reason to keep using the archaic B3 physics.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Soriphen on Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:13 am

First point for Tay is questionable for me since B3/IW physics are boring imo and infinites don't help. Point four is a bit iffy imo cause of spamming that might happen if specials take no ki (Like, spamming a high priority special move or riot javelin). Other than that, it seems cool.

Hmm, actually, to fix the special spamming, you could put a negative penalty for pussying out and make spamming the same specials stale so that it has no use. Like 400 dmg for first time and then 200 dmg if the next hit you do is the same special in a certain time frame.

Another thing I want for the budokai series is more unique animations like Goku's back dash elbow or Piccolo's jumping arm strike. Makes the game's combat more unique at least and aesthetically pleasing.

Ki cancels is a must.

Keep the Aura Burst system from Shin Budokai cause they added a shit load of depth (or somehow implement it with Tay's idea to keep depth).

That's pretty much it.

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:32 am

Your all vastly overrating infinites which barely affect the game as much as the useless changes in the other games to "Eliminate" them in SB/BL which helped fuck those games up
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Nnamz on Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:35 am

TrollCapAmerica wrote:Your all vastly overrating infinites which barely affect the game as much as the useless changes in the other games to "Eliminate" them in SB/BL which helped fuck those games up

80% of all characters in B3 had infinite juggles. I had a friend who was a novice at canceling and didn't know ANY combos at all, he had just learned canceling in 20 minutes. He actually took a round against me when I was playing as Gohan with 18 by simply using her <PP infinite juggle. There was no need for him to master anything else when he can obtain near maximum damage with <PP over and over again.

How am I exaggerating when this happens? Dozens of characters in B3 have infinites, and they are mistakes, mistakes that were removed.

And the new physics in SB and BL have nothing to do with your reasons as to why you think those games are fucked up.

Going back to broke ass 2004 physics was the sole reason I wasn't on the IW scene at all. There is no reason to do that again since the next game won't be on PS2 and we have a solid physics system for the Budokai games already ready to be used on PSP or PS3, whichever system the game is on.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Brohan on Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:14 pm

Eh. Apples and oranges. Both physics systems are good.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Nnamz on Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:00 pm

Really?

How are 2 evolutions of the same engine different kinds of fruits? Razz

It's apples and apples in this case. We're not comparing District 9 to the sport of Baseball here.....
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by TrollCapAmerica on Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:25 pm

Nnamz wrote:
TrollCapAmerica wrote:Your all vastly overrating infinites which barely affect the game as much as the useless changes in the other games to "Eliminate" them in SB/BL which helped fuck those games up

80% of all characters in B3 had infinite juggles. I had a friend who was a novice at canceling and didn't know ANY combos at all, he had just learned canceling in 20 minutes. He actually took a round against me when I was playing as Gohan with 18 by simply using her

How am I exaggerating when this happens? Dozens of characters in B3 have infinites, and they are mistakes, mistakes that were removed.

And the new physics in SB and BL have nothing to do with your reasons as to why you think those games are fucked up.

Going back to broke ass 2004 physics was the sole reason I wasn't on the IW scene at all. There is no reason to do that again since the next game won't be on PS2 and we have a solid physics system for the Budokai games already ready to be used on PSP or PS3, whichever system the game is on.

Because vastly damage buffered infinites doing 1500 damage are largely pointless and overrated because the Youtube crowd is obsessed with them since they cant have many good matches

The physics sucked in SB because of the backdash problem which is a product of a worthless attempt to get rid of largely damage buffered infinites.Something that was easily solved in IW by eliminating the
Anti-TC infinites that mattered a HELL of alot more since they eliminated the ability to TC safely

and you bailed on IW because Piccalo wasent any good .Although i say now hes better than we originally thought
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Heromaster111 on Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:21 am

Nnamz wrote:
80% of all characters in B3 had infinite juggles. I had a friend who was a novice at canceling and didn't know ANY combos at all, he had just learned canceling in 20 minutes. He actually took a round against me when I was playing as Gohan with 18 by simply using her

Umm wouldn't you eventually TC out of it? The damage from it anyway would suck with damage buffering, especially if he isn't finishing it with a DM. If you are saying he spammed <P<P and getting you into the juggle it's kind of your fault to keep falling for it.

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by THTB on Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:28 am

Infinites are oversights, yes...but in B3/IW they aren't even that bad...hell unless they're DM infinites, they suck and are just there to tack on some more damage after you've used up ground chains, which helps some characters out quite a bit in terms of damage. In B3/IW they actually keep the damage more balanced. There's nothing wrong with infinites in Budokai, since the game has a combo escape function also...which reminds me...ALLOW ALL CHARACTERS TO TC ANYTHING! The inability to TC is cute for fanservice...but it sucks otherwise.

Also, the fatigue system. I forgot to talk on this. Definitely, definitely bring back BL's fatigue system. But instead of having it slowly drain over time...have it not drain at all for about 2 seconds, then rapidly empty. Upon being dizzied, you drop so fast and get pushed back so far that it will be impossible to get more than 3 hits, if that. This prevents true infinites that lead to SFA3 moments of entire rounds consisting of being juggled by the same chain lol.

SB's physics would work too, but you'd have to fix backdashes first. Sori's discovered they're not that bad, but they still are pretty bad. They need to make it so that you don't go into a low juggle state on physical hits during dashes.

Both physics systems have their merits, though. So either one is fine...though B3/IW physics don't need much changed, really.

Special spam...eh, that's definitely not gonna be a problem if you do things right. Like, Goku's Dragon Fist only has 1 hit of super armor throughout the entire string and the initial lunge is only 1 hit. Gohan's SDS only has super armor on the charge part of the attack. Bardock's Riot Javelin has bad recovery...so on and so forth.

Ki cancelling...hmm...could work. Smile

Now that I think about it...maybe a cross between IW and SBAR's aura dashing systems could work. Like, have it be SBAR's aura burst, but instead of just having 2 attacks out of aura burst, maybe follow IW's system and require L+H for Aura Smash, freeing up the other two for whatever, and allowing you to freely attack anywhere during a dash instead of after. And maybe taking Cap's idea a bit further about armor breakers and making one of these attacks an armor breaker...and also extending this property to some specials maybe.

And I do agree on unique animations as well as more unique specials.

So much they can do. The possibilities are limitless. Smile

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Dizlord on Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:18 pm

So much they can do. The possibilities are limitless.

Yes let's just hope they really want to change something.

Well seeing caps idea with the armor break is actually a good idea, considering my idea with the high/low it should actually be better to not do that because of the limitless attack options you could have and not enough defense options to counter it, armor break seems a really good idea.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by lordantonius on Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:02 pm

Armor break sounds really interesting.
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Soriphen on Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:48 pm

Only reason why I like SB's physics system over B3/IW is cause of how fast and mobile I feel with it and that juggling actually makes you work for it and it's fun. The ukemi in SB also is expansive and fun too cause of Aura Burst and that additional back tech. Also, ki canceling is a fukin must...holy shit it's what makes budokai interesting cause of the shit you could exploit with it.


As for the backdash problem, yeah, going into low juggle state after a physical attack might suck...just add a negative penalty system like Guilty Gear and Blazblue.

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by THTB on Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:47 pm

What kinda negative penalty system would you add for a tool for spacing lol? For something like backdashing, that's not a good idea.

All you need to do is make it so that backdash is considered grounded.

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Soriphen on Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:55 pm

Lol, that's why you balance it just like in Blazblue and Guilty Gear. It goes like this...For every backdash or wtv, you get negative points and for everything involving moving forward and blocking an attack or attacking, you get positive points.

ANYWAY, I just realized it's pointless not because of the backdash, but, you could simply TC instead LOL.

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Nnamz on Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:43 am

"Umm wouldn't you eventually TC out of it?"

You're missing the point.
He ended the combo before I could, like anyone else. It doesn't change the fact that a novice could bust out that kind of damage after 3 minutes of practice by repeating the same chain over and over.
It's not the fact that the combo doesn't end, its the fact that its an easy combo. And almost every character has one.

"The damage from it anyway would suck with damage buffering, especially if he isn't finishing it with a DM."

#1. In 18 seconds Android 18 can get nearly as much damage from repeating <PP over and over again than she can from her longest ground combo into a juggle.
#2. He did end it in a death move.

"If you are saying he spammed <P<P and getting you into the juggle it's kind of your fault to keep falling for it."

Except 18's <P has 30 reach points and nullifies.......
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Nnamz on Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:46 am

"SB's physics would work too, but you'd have to fix backdashes first. Sori's discovered they're not that bad, but they still are pretty bad. They need to make it so that you don't go into a low juggle state on physical hits during dashes."

They can easily do this. Make ki blasts pop your opponent higher, or make dashing stuns work on backdash. Simple as that.
Its a problem that has nothing to do with the physics. No need to go back to broke as bouncy B3/IW physics Razz
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by THTB on Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:12 am

Soriphen wrote:Lol, that's why you balance it just like in Blazblue and Guilty Gear. It goes like this...For every backdash or wtv, you get negative points and for everything involving moving forward and blocking an attack or attacking, you get positive points.

ANYWAY, I just realized it's pointless not because of the backdash, but, you could simply TC instead LOL.
That's...dumb...you get rewarded for a dash meant to promote aggressiveness by a subsystem...yet the same subsystem punishes you for performing dashes that could be used for spacing and forcing whiffs...am I the only one who finds that beyond retarded? This is why I don't generally like GG/BB...there's just subsystems that blatantly promote certain playstyles. I don't see how anyone likes the idea of that, but that's just me.

Anyway, yeah, if they fix the backdash issue, then yeah, it's all gravy.

Also, Nnamz, there's nothing wrong with that...that's just how the engine works. Be lucky it's not braindead and doesn't strip you of like 70-85% of your life lol. I've seen shit worse than even that...1 single button = GGPO LMAO.

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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

Post by Thalès76 on Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:01 am

And there are infinites in BL
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Re: Your ideas for a new Budokai

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